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 Rank: Vice-Master     Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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A few years ago I purchased from A.N.C.R.E. the research monograph written by Jean Boudriot and Hubert Berti about the "Brick de 24" Le Cygne. The underlying idea was to start an experience in admiralty style (or POF), starting with a simpler sailing ship such as a "brick" (French) or "brig" (English).
The brig is a sailing vessel with two masts, foremast and mainmast, with a single gun deck and generally armed with 18-20 guns or carronades. Initially, there were traditional guns of 6-8 pdrs, then the armament evolved using 24 pdrs carronades while maintaining a couple of long guns for shooting during hunting.
During the period of the wars between England and France, the Revolutionary Wars first and then the Napoleonic Wars, a large number of these sailing ships were built on projects belonging to three/four french engineers (Pestel, Sanè, Forfait, etc.) and builts in several replicas in various French, Dutch and Italian shipyards.
The monograph about Le Cygne proposes a model of brick designed by the french engineer Francois Pestel and was reproduced twenty times plus two additional ships faithfully reproduced by Sanè, for a total of twenty-two historically established ships.
Upon receipt of the monograph I noticed, however, that the plans were not useful to build a "Plank On Frame" model as the drawings in the monograph didn't show the frame layouts, so my attention veered out of other ideas.
Recently I finished the building of the Soleil Royal and I found myself to decide on which to build a new model. After some researches I took back the monograph of Le Cygne and I carefully re-read it.
Immediately, I was very intrigued by the fact that almost all of these brick had a very short lifetime in the French Navy and the monograph itself was unclear, in a table list, specifying only the year of "radiation".
At the beginning I thought about some structural defects that made them short-living, although the same was also true for other bricks designed by French engineers. Then, going deeper, I discovered the truth, hidden in the monograph of Boudriot / Berti probably from the usual and by now well-known "french chauvinism".
In short: of the 22 "Brick de 24" designed by Pestel, 18 were captured by the Royal Navy, 2 were transferred to the Italian navy and 2 have gone missing, coincidentally the year that were struck off in the table is the same the ship was commissioned in the Royal Navy, participating with great success in the war against Napoleon. So, ironically, the French Navy seems to have been the major supplier of brigs for the Royal Navy !!!
Hence the idea to complete the historical research in relation to the British viewpoint in order to have a complete picture of the operational life of these ships. Consequently, I have identified a number of these brick in service in the Royal Navy, sometimes with similar names and sometimes totally different, and I decided to build one, although at the moment I do not know exactly which.
According to the monograph, the only distinguishing features were the figurehead and bottles aft .. and, obviously, the armament.
The story continues in the next message which will follow shortly. . Yours sincerely, Jack.Aubrey.
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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This model will not be built as a Plank On Frame model for many, different and personal reasons: - the ANCRE monograph and the related drawings contained in it does not show the outline of the framework as, for example, the case of other similar books from the same publisher;
- for the reason previously listed the well-known ship modeler Bernard Frolich, the author of "The art of shipmodeling", built this ship in the more traditional system known as Plank On Bulkheads, so if he made this choice with all the support that surely should have found in France from his followers, why should I do it myself ?
- even the British plans of these bricks, made after their capture and preserved at the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich (NMM), do not allow to reconstruct the frame structure;
- I just decided to build the model in the configuration when he was serving in the Royal Navy, that is, with english ordnance, english masting and rigging and who knows what else (maybe not visible) in order not to confront with the equivalent models based on ANCRE plans only;
- I would like to deceive myself to make a model almost "unique," or at least I hope so;
- I have a strong inclination towards the dislike for modeling in POF, after some past critical experiences on italian forums with some kind of italian POF modelers and the present is not likely to change my mind.
So do not expect to see a ship hull made up of all those little pieces of pearwood; this model will be a peaceful sailship with keel and bulwarks in poplar plywood, double planking and so on. As far as I know now I will complete everything, hull, masts, rigging and sails though, knowing myself, I will have to spend a lot of time to see this model finished and during this time lapse it's possible i'll change my mind in the future . . . Regards, Jack.
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 Rank: Super-Elite     Groups: Registered
Joined: 31/05/2010 Posts: 5,679 Points: 17,011 Location: Wiltshire
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Jack This sounds a very interesting and complex project you have set yourself. I will be following with great interest and am sure you will produce a stunning piece of work. Happy modelling Tony Happy Modelling
BUILDING: Hachette Spitfire Mk 1A, Constructo Mayflower
SUBSCRIPTION COMPLETE (Awaiting building): USS Constitution, Sovereign of the Seas, 1:200 Bismarck (Hachette)
COMPLETED: Porsche 911, E-Type Jaguar, Lam Countach
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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The following are the current results of my research about the "Brick de 24" built from a design by Francois Pestel. The table shown in the first two pages here below was compiled, using as a starting point, a similar table contained in the ANCRE monograph, where all the French built bricks from 1755 until 1850 are listed. From this list I have selected the twenty sailing ships designed by Pestel in the years 1800-1808. This information is reproduced "as is" in the first five columns of the table. The remaining columns are the result of my personal research born from my curiosity to know the reason for such a relatively short operating lifetime in the "Boney" French Navy. I researched informations in various sources but the most useful in this case was the Rif Winfield's book titled " British Warships in the age of sail 1793 - 1817 - Design, Construction, Careers and Fates". With this informations I could complete the remaining columns in the previous cited table, and, particularly, the individual history of nine of these bricks under the Royal Navy flags. The research does not be considered 100% over, even if now it is at a good point of completeness. Then, unless of upheaval at the moment can not be foreseen, the model that I am going to build will bring one of these nine names. Images 03 and 04 and the other images I'll add in the next post are the individual histories about the nine english prey "brigs", ships who have had a significant lifetime. Good reading. . . the remaining four pages in the next message. Jack. I'm obviously joking, the language used is Italian so I can imagine some problems for most of you. I commit to setup a good translation in the future . . 01 Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/BricksdeGuerreFrancais-1_zps654aa1e3.jpg  02 Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/BricksdeGuerreFrancais-2_zps1dbbc871.jpg  03 Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/BricksdeGuerreFrancais-3_zpsea495187.jpg  04 Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/BricksdeGuerreFrancais-4_zps3d9b6737.jpg 
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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In this new message I've included the second and final part of my research. See you next time, Jack. 05 Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/BricksdeGuerreFrancais-5_zpscde915fa.jpg  06 Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/BricksdeGuerreFrancais-6_zps716affd3.jpg  07 Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/BricksdeGuerreFrancais-7_zpsbe35c4bd.jpg  08 Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/BricksdeGuerreFrancais-8_zps4491b193.jpg 
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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Having reached the decision to build this sailship, I started to watch the plans available in the ANCRE monograph and also those available at the National Maritime Museum in London. I had not to think a lot about which plan refer to regarding the ship hull: in this case I think that the ANCRE plans are much better and are also immediately available to me, while those of the NMM must before be bought, which probably will do at a later time. For now I have only watched the images on the NMM website, downloaded and enlarged them up to capacity right to compare certain points that I wanted to verify. So, I said then that I would have used the ANCRE plans, but for what I have in mind, it becomes necessary a design approach that I can only adopt using only these plans. So I selected the plans n° 1 of the 19 plans available with the monograph and I went at a copy center to make me scan the table and get a file in .TIF format, file format useful to be imported into AutoCAD. The table I converted into a picture file is the following: Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/nave_zps4d5c5a31.jpg  Since I was there, knowing that sooner or later will become useful, I have also scanned the table that contains all the ship boats, I would always design up in AutoCAD. I offer you here below: Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/barca_zps285f10a5.jpg  Then, back to home, I sit to the computer to process the first table presented here. I use AutoCAD version 2005. This version maybe a little outdated but on my computer still works pretty well and then I do not feel the need to have more features. Among other things, my experience of using this program is somewhat limited, although with the usage and experience tends to grow, but it is still good enough to do what I need. The basic concept for the use of AutoCAD with ANCRE Table 1 is to import the TIF file obtained from scanning as "raster image" (feature available in the program) in the base "layer" and then copy the design with the functions and commands available on a second "layer". At the end of this copy operation the new "layer" will contain the table prepared and usable for many other situations. Of course, before beginning this "upsetting" some controls were needed to avoid blunders in the following steps: - print in 1:1 scale the imported image to check with the original table sheet that the measures coincide and that there are no distortions; - check that the imported image is perfectly horizontal, something that almost never happens because the passage through the scanner is never perfect so that usually the horizontal plane is tilted a few degrees; to align the imported image is pretty simple (although I needed many attempts to be successful..) with AutoCAD and then I proceeded to fix this defect; - at this point, ready to start . . and after a few days of patience and work here comes the first basic design from which all the others will be derived. Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/V012Brick24ImageBodyPlanBase_zpsfe6aa0c2.jpg  For now I would say that is enough. . Regards, Jack.Aubrey
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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The last drawing reproduced in the previous message, with the three views of the hull, becomes the starting point for further processing of the project. In this case with a simple AutoCAD copy & paste command I have set up two new tables, that are proposed here below, and where all the bulkheads that make up the hull are drawn. The first drawing shows the bulkheads from amidships (bulkhead #M2) to the bow (bulkhead #VIIIa); for a total of nine bulkheads: Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/V001BodyPlanFromM2toVIII_zpsf000dd51.jpg  The second drawing, instead, shows the bulkheads aft from amidships (#M1) to stern (#XIII); 14 bulkheads in total: Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/V001BodyPlanFromM1toXIII_zps6a56b536.jpg  Now the various hull elements are printable on a single sheet of A4 paper and, when glued onto a plywood tablet of 5mm thick, will be ready for cutting with the saw. Now only the plywood is missing to start. But there's no hurry . . Note that the bulkheads #M1 and #M2, although there are two, are perfectly equal. See you soon, Jack.Aubrey.
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Rank: Vice-Master  Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/05/2014 Posts: 912 Points: 2,773 Location: East Sussex UK
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Looking forward to seeing this one come together Jack. Building: DelPrado HMS Victory. Building: DeAgostini Sovereign Of The Seas.
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered
Joined: 31/05/2010 Posts: 5,679 Points: 17,011 Location: Wiltshire
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Jack This is very futuristic and a real indication of your experience. Autocad I know about but would not even know were to start and there you are producing all of this component parts- simple amazing. Very interesting and as I said before I can see you putting together one absolutely brilliant model at the end of this. Happy modelling Tony Happy Modelling
BUILDING: Hachette Spitfire Mk 1A, Constructo Mayflower
SUBSCRIPTION COMPLETE (Awaiting building): USS Constitution, Sovereign of the Seas, 1:200 Bismarck (Hachette)
COMPLETED: Porsche 911, E-Type Jaguar, Lam Countach
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Always interesting to se how people go about their models and scratch building is something not may of us do to this degree. But i am not sure why you have posted a lot of stuff in French? non the less looking forward to your build once it starts Jase “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.”
-Mark Twain
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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Gibbo wrote:Looking forward to seeing this one come together Jack. I hope to start as soon as possible. In these days I'm now collecting the material needed but many shops are still closed for the summer holidays. I ask you some patience for a couple of weeks. birdaj2 wrote:Jack
This is very futuristic and a real indication of your experience.
Autocad I know about but would not even know were to start and there you are producing all of this component parts- simple amazing.
Very interesting and as I said before I can see you putting together one absolutely brilliant model at the end of this.
Happy modelling
Tony Although I worked for more than 30 year in the Information Technology area this is my second experience with a program such as AutoCAD. At the beginning it was an hard life but with the help of a friend I started to better know the program and how to use it to get/improve ship plans. Surely this method provides a wonderful tool to design the ship hull and its elements. I hope its utility will be confirmed in the continuation of this project. jase wrote:Always interesting to se how people go about their models and scratch building is something not may of us do to this degree.
But i am not sure why you have posted a lot of stuff in French?
non the less looking forward to your build once it starts
Jase In scratch building every mind can work independently to the rest of the world and you can find that there are several ways to go from A to B while this doesn't happen with the kits, where you work with another's mind. By the way the lot of stuff is in Italian, not French language. It is the initial version of my research that, if this project will continue, and this is what I want to do, will be translated in English. But this takes time. If you want to get an idea of its contents you can try Google Translator, it's not a perfect IT to EN translation but sometimes can be enough to understand.
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered
Joined: 31/05/2010 Posts: 5,679 Points: 17,011 Location: Wiltshire
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Jack Many thanks for the update. I guessed you must have had background in technology as your work is really very good. You are producing a great set of detailed plans from which to build and I have am looking forward to seeing the results of all your hard work. Happy modelling Tony Happy Modelling
BUILDING: Hachette Spitfire Mk 1A, Constructo Mayflower
SUBSCRIPTION COMPLETE (Awaiting building): USS Constitution, Sovereign of the Seas, 1:200 Bismarck (Hachette)
COMPLETED: Porsche 911, E-Type Jaguar, Lam Countach
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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In some previous message I wrote about the availability at the Maritime Museum in London (NMM) of some plans of a couple of French brigs captured by the Royal Navy. More in detail, there are three drawings related to "Curieux" that I show here below Object ID: ZAZ4248Description: Scale 1:48. Plan showing the upper deck and lower deck with platforms for Curieux (captured 1804), a captured French Brig as taken off and fitted as an 18-gun Brig Sloop. The ship was at Plymouth to have defects made good between 17 July and 17 October 1805. Signed by Joseph Tucker [Master Shipwright, Plymouth Dockyard, 1802-1813]. Date made: September 1805 Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/j4295_zps2ecec852.jpg  Object ID: ZAZ4247Description: Scale 1:48. Plan showing the body plan with stern board decoration and name across the counter, the sheer lines with inboard detail and quarter gallery [figurehead missing], and longitudinal half-breadth for Curieux (captured 1804), a captured French Brig as taken off and fitted as an 18-gun Brig Sloop. The ship was at Plymouth to have defects made good between 17 July and 17 October 1805. Signed by Joseph Tucker [Master Shipwright, Plymouth Dockyard, 1802-1813]. The top right corner is missing, including the area around the figurehead. Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/J4296_zps1d5a57f0.jpg  Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/LeCurieux_zpsad3df84b.jpg  Plus two plans regarding the brig "Le Milan" that under the RN became HMS Achates. Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/LeMilan-ZAZ4499-01_zpsedb9402f.jpg  Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/LeMilan-ZAZ4500-01_zps3ec4d208.jpg  As you can see there are no significant differences (something aft) and one can understand how, having already the ANCRE plans, there is no need to complicate my life buying these designs . . at least for the moment. It's a pity that in these plans the bow of Curieux is ruined and it's impossible to see the figurehead . . while for the Achates seems to have reproduced the same figurehead of Le Cygne. I think more to a copy action than to a real possibility that the two figureheads were actually equal . .
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/05/2014 Posts: 912 Points: 2,773 Location: East Sussex UK
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Your models are always worth waiting for Jack. Building: DelPrado HMS Victory. Building: DeAgostini Sovereign Of The Seas.
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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And now let's work to design the keel. . To do this I obviously started from the basic design obtained in the first steps of this topic, by tracing out the table scanned; I focused my work on the sheer view with the aim to obtain the profile of the keel in order to then proceed to the detail drawings of the pieces to cut. First I placed on the new design the correct position of the mortise for the bulkheads, the mortise is 5mm, right to receive the bulkhead that has a thickness of 5 mm. The line that runs through the center hull design indicates the point where the mortises for the bulkheads will be terminated. The upper part of the keel will follow the side profile of the upper deck, which has a slight sheer. . Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/V014Brick24ImageBodyPlanBase_zpsdea2c68d.jpg  A further step to remove parts of the design not really necessary and begin to glimpse the outline of the keel. . Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/V013Brick24ImageBodyPlanBase_zps87a09dad.jpg  Finally, the final design of the keel with the slots for the two masts and the voluntary choice not to use the bulkheads #Va too close to the foremast and #IV practically overlapping the mainmast. I also sketched out a couple of joints to trim the keel into three pieces in order to print on A4 paper sheets. Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/V014Brick24Keel_zps28a854bf.jpg  To be continued . . Regards, Jack.
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered
Joined: 31/05/2010 Posts: 5,679 Points: 17,011 Location: Wiltshire
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Jack This is very interesting indeed. Looking forward to seeing the paper designs being turned into wooden parts. Happy modelling Tony Happy Modelling
BUILDING: Hachette Spitfire Mk 1A, Constructo Mayflower
SUBSCRIPTION COMPLETE (Awaiting building): USS Constitution, Sovereign of the Seas, 1:200 Bismarck (Hachette)
COMPLETED: Porsche 911, E-Type Jaguar, Lam Countach
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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The last process on the third design of the previous message: the printout in 1:1 scale of the three segments that make up the keel. As for the bulkheads these three designs are ready to be glued on plywood boards, this time with a thickness of 4mm. to be cut with the jigsaw. Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/V014Brick24KeelModel3_zpsc303c8cd.jpg  Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/V014Brick24KeelModel2_zps74b5c2ba.jpg  Brick%20de%2024%20Plans/V014Brick24KeelModel1_zps5cd4a3ee.jpg  In theory, with this initial design work I'm at the point where I can begin to cut out the various elements of the hull (keel and bulkheads). I do not consider the case to investigate further details before seeing the whole dry-mounted together and after having setup up a proper building basement. So now I have to get some wood that I briefly summarize here: - 25 tablets of poplar plywood 150 x 190 x 5 mm for the bulkheads; - 3 or 4 tablets of plywood of a harder wood than poplar (birch?) 250 x 150 x 4 mm for the keel; - 2 strips of 10 x 15 mm of the appropriate length for the two central reinforcements of the hull. Regarding the building base I'll use the material prepared at the time of the 12 Apostles, appropriately modified. Considering that the card is subject to change depending on humidity and temperature, it is my intention to print all the material so far prepared at the same time and using the same stack of paper. I hope so to print all the drawings in the same environmental conditions and to avoid small differences in measurement. If I could laser print directly on the plywood would be the ideal thing but. . I do not think it's possible without the proper equipments. Finally, I'm asking and I hope to get some advice about: which kind of paper glue is better to use in sticking the paper to the plywood? Might be a better material for the keel the MDF? That's all for today. Cordial greetings, Jack.Aubrey.
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered
Joined: 31/05/2010 Posts: 5,679 Points: 17,011 Location: Wiltshire
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Jack Looking very good. I would suggest a spray adhesive such as 3m photo mount. Depending on the paper you print on what you do not want is the paper picking up excess moisture from the glue and crinkling. Hope you find something suitable. Happy modelling Tony Happy Modelling
BUILDING: Hachette Spitfire Mk 1A, Constructo Mayflower
SUBSCRIPTION COMPLETE (Awaiting building): USS Constitution, Sovereign of the Seas, 1:200 Bismarck (Hachette)
COMPLETED: Porsche 911, E-Type Jaguar, Lam Countach
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 28/05/2014 Posts: 938 Points: 2,823 Location: Milan (Italy)
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birdaj2 wrote:Jack
Looking very good.
I would suggest a spray adhesive such as 3m photo mount.
Depending on the paper you print on what you do not want is the paper picking up excess moisture from the glue and crinkling.
Hope you find something suitable.
Happy modelling
Tony Hi Tony, I'll try to see if this spray adhesive is sold also in Italy. The product seems interesting. Thanks for your suggestion, Jack. PS: I was employee in 3M Italy until december 2001 and there are still some people I know there that probably can help me to research if the product is available.
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered
Joined: 31/05/2010 Posts: 5,679 Points: 17,011 Location: Wiltshire
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Jack I believe there are other brands but here is an interesting link describing the range supplied by 3m. http://solutions.3m.co.u...stening/SprayAdhesives/
Happy modelling Tony Happy Modelling
BUILDING: Hachette Spitfire Mk 1A, Constructo Mayflower
SUBSCRIPTION COMPLETE (Awaiting building): USS Constitution, Sovereign of the Seas, 1:200 Bismarck (Hachette)
COMPLETED: Porsche 911, E-Type Jaguar, Lam Countach
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