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 Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/09/2010 Posts: 29 Points: 77 Location: Tamworth, Staffs, UK
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I am in the process of fitting the middle gun deck. I seem to remember from my time in the navy that the deck planks on the Victory's gun decks were painted red so that blood wouldn't show during naval engadgements. Can anybody comfirm if my memory is correct as i am thinking of painting the gun decks.
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 Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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I've certainly seen this mentioned on one or two web sites about the Victory.
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 Rank: Vice-Master  Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/10/2011 Posts: 851 Points: 2,628 Location: Leeds, Yorkshire
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Hi Brian
My belief is that is an old wives' tale which I have heard is even put about by the guides on Victory to amuse the masses.
I read somewhere or heard it from an authoritative source on a documentary that the reason they used red paint on the Orlop deck was because it was the cheapest and most readily available in the dockyard stores. Sailors would not have thought a lot about seeing the colour of the blood since it would have been splashed about pretty liberally on all the other decks during an action. Once they were in the clutches of the surgeon they would have had a lot more to worry about in terms of pain and likely outcomes.
I just wish I could remember the original source.
Mike T
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 Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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Its mentioned in this link http://www.paintedships.com/victory.asp
"Nelson hoisted his flag in Victory in 1803, and smart and clean after her refit, she sailed from Spithead on 20 March. Her gun decks would have been given a fresh coat of red paint (to minimise the psychological effect on her gunners when the footing became awash with blood) and the yellow bands along her hull doubtless bright as gold." Though like Mike says, it could well be old wives tales.
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I always thought it was the inner hull on the gundecks that was painted red rather than the floor which would have been sprinkled with sand for a better footing in action.But as Mike says its probably an old wives tale that has been enlarged upon over the years by various authors. Rob Nolli Illigitimi Carborundum!!!Current Builds: HMS Victory, SV Thermopylae
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 Rank: Vice-Master  Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/10/2011 Posts: 851 Points: 2,628 Location: Leeds, Yorkshire
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Tomick wrote:Its mentioned in this link http://www.paintedships.com/victory.asp
"Nelson hoisted his flag in Victory in 1803, and smart and clean after her refit, she sailed from Spithead on 20 March. Her gun decks would have been given a fresh coat of red paint (to minimise the psychological effect on her gunners when the footing became awash with blood) and the yellow bands along her hull doubtless bright as gold." Though like Mike says, it could well be old wives tales. Hi Tom I have read the rest of the article which you linked in and it makes interesting reading. I wish I knew who wrote it. He talks about Captain Hardy as being a cruel man at odds with Nelson. in fact, Nelson and Hardy served together successfully before Victory and shared common views on discipline. The article suggests that Hardy 'ordered' three 'floggings round the fleet' between 1803 and 1805. It is unlikely that he would have been able to do this. Such a punishment could only be awarded by a courts martial, in which case a board of senior officers would have had to agree. The author also makes a throw away emotive comment about the sailors 'living worse than animals' whilst the officers lived differently. People need to place the Georgian Navy in the context of a society where there were huge differences between the 'gentry' and the poor. In actual fact sailors on board ship had a hard life but were far better off than their contemporaries who lived and worked on the land. Hence the number of volunteers for the Navy. Sailors had a good varied diet including meat amounting to 2500 calories per day in order to do hard manual work. The quality of the food was not what we have come to expect from modern super markets with freezers etc. however the 18th century sailors knew little better. I am making these points just to illustrate how fascinating it can be to look at the history and times behind the models that are being built. I enjoy my model making but like to put it in context. Lets have more contributions along these lines. Thanks for that Tom Mike T
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 Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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Joined: 25/08/2010 Posts: 170 Points: 537 Location: Germany
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Hi mates, which decks where affected by this? Where all decks painted red or just the orlop ? As i mentioned in my older post here, I am nearby working on a cross-section model of the vic and I would like to paint the interior as well. Thanks for any advices. Timm My build diary hereCurrent Build:HMS Victory
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 Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/09/2010 Posts: 29 Points: 77 Location: Tamworth, Staffs, UK
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I'ved just done a bit of research and i now believe the gun decks would have been unvarnished planks possibly bleach white from being scrubbed with sea water.
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A few years ago I built the Heller 1/98 scale plastic kit of the Victory. From what I've read about this kit, it is supposed to be the most historically accurate kit of the Victory made up to that time. The lower gundeck on that kit was painted red. I know that it's only a plastic kit (and French to boot  ) but it adds fuel to the question of deck colour. I am not trying to stir anything up with this post, just pointing something out. Dave H
Current builds :- Hachette 1/16 Tiger Tank H.M.S Victory, Santisima Trinidad (Section), 1/8 scale Aston Martin DB5, 1/8 scale McLaren, YNWA
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Brian100 wrote:I'ved just done a bit of research and i now believe the gun decks would have been unvarnished planks possibly bleach white from being scrubbed with sea water. I'm sure you are right Brian, the gun decks would have been left as a wood finish and sand would have been spread to improve the grip. If the gun decks were painted they would have had a slippery surface, surely? The orlop deck is a different matter, it was below the waterline and served as the ship's operating theatre in battle. The floor would have been painted to prevent body fluids (blood and assorted gore) from penetrating the wood and make it easier to wash down. BTW Doremi, every contribution is interesting, I'm sure you are not stirring it! But quoting a French kit ..... Really!!! Mike T
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 Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/09/2010 Posts: 29 Points: 77 Location: Tamworth, Staffs, UK
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Mike T, have you any sugestions on how to make the middle and upper gun decks look bleached.
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Joined: 13/10/2011 Posts: 851 Points: 2,628 Location: Leeds, Yorkshire
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Brian100 wrote:Mike T, have you any sugestions on how to make the middle and upper gun decks look bleached. Hi Brian I regard myself as a fairly enthusiastic researcher who like the rest of you am attempting to build wooden boats! You really need some advice from those with more modelling experience on staining, Zeptrader would be my bet. If I was trying to create a bleached effect, I would be looking at a clear satin varnish over a light wood, but as I say Zeptrader could probably recommend an oiled finish? Over to you Colin!! Mike T
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Hi
I have tried to do this on bits of scrap a few times, The best way I have up to now is mix white paint with water very thin and watered down, dab the smallest bit of black. So it would be very light grey. Paint in all over the bare deck. Leave to dry then rub down lightly. then you can coat it with whatever covering you wish to use.( I use Antique oil.) If done right it should look bleached.
Try on scrap wood first.
Chris..On the bench 1/350 Revell Tirpitz Platinum Edition (Pontos PE and Wooden deck) plus extra Eduard PE set and extra MK1 door sets.
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 Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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I think chris is probably right, I've look at various pictures of ship of the period and they do indeed have that grey look to it, but one thing to remember is we working at scale here. I've not tried the bleach effect and wonder how the end effect will be on this scale of model.
Defiantly try on some scrap wood first.
What I have tried thought is the white paint on wood, for example the hull belwo the water line, this is a colour scheme I will be working with, I used a small jar and added some the the white paint I got from Cornwall model boats, then added some water, not to weak but not too thick, then painted it on a few lenghts of wood and left to dry. Once it's dried in I lightly sanded it down, and again used the same watered down paint to re brush the wood. And again let that dry and lightly sand it back. 2 coats was all I did and to be honest it still keeps the wood effect but pained white, an effect that to me looks stunning and clean.
This method as mentioned by chris could be a starting point, get the right shade of grey, paint, let dry, sand back, as long as you can still see your wood below it, repeat again, you will start to see the effect.
I guess over that you could either wax it or matt varnish, I think using Danish oil will penetrate the wood and maybe discolour all your hard work, trial and error.
I have seen vinegar used, not sure where but you have to wonder what effect that will have on the wood long term.
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Joined: 20/03/2010 Posts: 278 Points: 833 Location: Nottingham
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I've been researching this topic for the last few days and on the question of aging decks came across this guy on MSW. I suppose Brit products could be found. Or is this to extreme? Deck colourPam's shipyard is closed for now no more room!
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you can buy wood bleaches from decorating shops..brewers or a specialist decorating effects shop that sells stuff like french polish,stains and waxes cheers benny
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 Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/09/2010 Posts: 29 Points: 77 Location: Tamworth, Staffs, UK
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Thanks magpie1832 & Zeptrader, will try out your surgestions on some scrap wood and see which method looks best for what i am trying to achieve.
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Joined: 27/03/2010 Posts: 188 Points: 614 Location: Llandudno
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Hi guys Just a note. If you look at pictures of the decks when they are wet the natural colour (I believe oak) comes out. Bob
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Hi all this is my quick attempt of bleaching the deck. On the bench 1/350 Revell Tirpitz Platinum Edition (Pontos PE and Wooden deck) plus extra Eduard PE set and extra MK1 door sets.
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