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 Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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legendary information there willz! thank you!
its a bit of a trek but i wonder if they'd let me take measurements of the tiller so try and replicate it down to scale?
or would such information be avaiable online?
also willz can i pm you my email and possibly email me that pic if the original is bigger than that one?
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 Rank: Vice-Master      Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/03/2010 Posts: 507 Points: 1,571
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ok here`s the original secretreeve
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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cheers willz once again you pull through a legend.
i will start work on this as soon as i researcha few smaller detials and update as needed.
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 Rank: Amateur level 2  Groups: Registered
Joined: 20/06/2010 Posts: 47 Points: 144 Location: Northfleet
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Secretreeve. Still keeping an eye on this one. I have to check in at odd hours, and can't always post comments (wife, boss etc,etc). It's getting more intresting by the minute. Here's some thoughts: 1. You are running your control wires through the ribs (going by the photo's); from where to where? 2. The rudder tiller is above the waterline; on the lower gun deck; which is above your wires. I would also assume that the mechanism you intend to use to 'move' the rudder, is also above the control wires - where, how? 3. If, as your wires are below the lower gun deck, your control is going to be at the same level as the wires, do you intend your mechanism to be at 2/3rd's the height of the rudder. This being the case; internal action at a narrow part of the hull could be impossible; and external action would affect the look of the final finish of your new lady. 4. Any method that I can consider, will require substantial removal of elements of the false keel. Could this cause a weakness. Likewise, if you intend to avoid removing major parts of the false keel, then any 'leverage/pulley' points will add additional stress to the finished hull, when used. 5. Cable within plastic sheaths (motor bike clutch etc..)? 6. At what point above decks (assuming you go that way) will you be able to locate the 'turning mechanism. Just a few queries. That is all, coz I wouldn't mind trying to get my head around this one. And as you said, it's good to talk ideas through. See Ya.  Edit - The above sounds wrong!! if i had an option for you, I would suggest, but.... She had a long tiller, about 26 foot, and during action, if the ropes got shot through, the rear most gun crews would have to man the tiller. Depending on the wheather or the command, this could take up to 40 men to steer the ship in times of strife. Not for me... See Ya
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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with all of this new information available i belive that the project will need to be placed on hold until i am at a stage where i can plank the upper half of the victory and then make the following mofications.
i will need to install the middle gun deck so that i can see how much room i have, this should be in next months delivery.
as soon as i can find the dimensions for the tiller i can begin working on creating that.
would the national maritime museum have this information?
once the section has been removed, remodelled and rebuilt i can then install the tiller and begin working on installing the pulleys. again need to find the dimentions for this.
i dont really know what im doing until i do it. if that makes any sence to you.
as for cable inside sleeving, im going to try and go with the way it was constructed, rope and pulleys.
the mechanism i already have will be removed. however the pictures can serve as a far simpler way of making the rudder work if none of the workings will be on display.
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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29ft long tiller lol. well thats the length, just the width needed now then i can convert to scale. then need to work out type of wood, thickness, how many planks where used, kind of attatchments, degree of any bows in the shape, what ropes where used, how long where the ropes, how many ropes. although that image earlier will help greatly with the last few lol emailed people who run www.hmsvictory.co.uk or whatever the address is as well as maritime museum for information. also asked museum what the victories plans would cost lol. can hurt to have those right? seeing as we dont get those kind of plans with these kits
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Rank: Amateur level 2 Groups: Registered
Joined: 20/06/2010 Posts: 47 Points: 144 Location: Northfleet
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I love the tenacity. I have the scaled drawings somewhere, but they are no different than the ones posted here earlier (cannot remember who posted them, but you did request an e-mail version). That should give you an idea of the scale of the problem  . Thinking on this again, you would only need a relatively narrow slot through the last rib/bulkhead. The tiller should be above the gallerey support parts (32/33/34 - i think - memory), then through the bulkhead - with loads of room to play with.... The tiller is longer than the width of the gun deck, in which case, my 26' estimate is out by quite a way - nearer 30+. Necessary because of the leverage effect. if i recall correct, the rudder was approx 50' in length. Could be wrong though. This is looking more promising, and you are begining to talk me into the same bloody project..... Anyway, must go. F1 qually starts in 5 hours. Must ZZZZZZ See ya. PS. The actual Gallery construction could play a major part in this project of ours!!!! Sorry - yours. He He He
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Rank: Amateur level 2 Groups: Registered
Joined: 20/06/2010 Posts: 47 Points: 144 Location: Northfleet
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We just crossed messages in the post!!! Must be satalitte delay. 
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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lol well if you do join in let me kufuffle my model first and post pics of the impending disaster, then im not to blame if yours goes wrong lol.
it is definatly taking alot of effort to get the right information. but its progressing slowly especaily with the help of people here.
from that scanned image it looks like the tiller has only a few feet either side of movement, which is amazing.
it;ll be nice if one of the various organisations has the actual plans for the tiller.
then i can poke deag until my next delivery arrives and hopefully have a prototype tiller to test out.
oh i post and edit and post and edit a fair bit lol.
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Rank: Amateur level 2 Groups: Registered
Joined: 20/06/2010 Posts: 47 Points: 144 Location: Northfleet
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Oh sod it. I'm never going to bed at this rate... Willz was the top man who posted rudder details on 20#. It may look like a few feet - but I think about 15' either side, or 15 degrees ish of leverage on a rudder on the rear end of a ship 200 odd foot long obviously did the job. Willz design shows all the pully mechanism, and also the room for realistic man power to turn the thing when needed. Did you notice the 'ghosted' furthest position which the tiller can go internally - and the adjacent blocks which are the first point of contact with the pully system. The curve you see, is actually part of the structure - the ropes run along this guide, than forward to the triangular point, and then upwards to the ships wheel. Or downwards depending on your perspective... Like I said, an intresting micro project. I'm now thinking of just putting a flag on mine. See Ya. 
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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flag sounds a damn site easier atm lol.
im looking at it real closely and i see where the rope runs. no wonder u had to turn the wheel so many times to get fully one way or the other!
and hey sleeps overrated. why sleep when whitty banter and educatinal natter can ensue?
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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im mocking up a mini tiller atm to make sure i understand it corrently, be finished within 30 minutes and will upload a pic in that time
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Rank: Amateur level 2 Groups: Registered
Joined: 20/06/2010 Posts: 47 Points: 144 Location: Northfleet
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Good point about the banter. Natter!!.... I'm married. Was never any good at that, hence why I can only get a word in edgewise when the War Department is asleep! Yes dear... In a minute... (Love her to bits  - 28 years, half my house,my mortage - again, 5 kids, 2 dogs, cat, nother cat, no fish, etc,etc). back to banter/intelectual conversation... er! Willz drawing shows it all. obviously a larger scale helps, but we can all get the idea. have you had any of Jase's photo's? I have 7 packs, but not checked out the last four. I would have thought he would have had easy access to the rear end of the Lower Gun deck, which would show the system quite nicely. I'll double check. See ya after the F1 qualiy.
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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nice i'll ask him if he has any and if i can have them. got the tiller mocked up, its a none scale prototype for the scale prototype lol. i'll put picks up once i made a minature wheel.....i know i have some dowel somewhere....
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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Message was deleted by User.
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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 Rank: Master  Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/04/2010 Posts: 1,266 Points: 3,841 Location: The Quantock Hills,Somerset
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Interesting project,just one word of advice though.....the wheel mechanism is at 90degs to your mock up. Rob Nolli Illigitimi Carborundum!!!Current Builds: HMS Victory, SV Thermopylae
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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Rank: Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/04/2010 Posts: 1,266 Points: 3,841 Location: The Quantock Hills,Somerset
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the wheel turns port to starboard not fore & aft,also drum of rope runs fore & aft..see pic  Rob Nolli Illigitimi Carborundum!!!Current Builds: HMS Victory, SV Thermopylae
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Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
Joined: 15/09/2010 Posts: 175 Points: 517 Location: Durban RSA
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Changing the ropes through 90 degrees wont be a problem as they have to change direction from below the decks to the wheel hub.
What will be more of an issue is to build the sliding plank arrangements,which covers the slots, where the ropes come through the deck.
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