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 Rank: Super-Elite        Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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PLEASE NOTE: This thread is intended to clarify that the wheels CAN be assembled as per the instructions.
I certainly don't want to 'muddy the waters' in any way.I've had a couple of PM's asking me to have a go at assembling a wheel as it appears to be causing some difficulty. The main problem seems to be getting the second layer of spokes to have the desired '3 crossover' pattern. Why I've been asked, who knows but I'm pleased that a few think I could help. I'm not starting my actual build for a long time yet, but I'll have a bash at the first set of wheel parts. To begin with, The central hub has a plastic core that's meant to lock in place on the jig. I'm not sure why there's a locating stub and groove, as the two metal hub components rotate on the plastic centre anyway. However, centre hub duly placed. You will find it a pain trying to hold the hub down along with the rim, and fit the spokes... Drill a small hole down the centre column of the jig and fix the hub in place with a small screw and washer. Later on, use pieces of masking tape to fix the outer rim as well. For now, just fit a couple of spokes and glue firmly in the rim and hub. Make sure the central hub is rotated sufficiently to keep the spokes tight. Let the glue dry completely before moving on. *Using glue is purely optional and not necessary. I just like to be extra-secure.*
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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Apologies - first pics too big. roymattblack attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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And... roymattblack attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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Add masking tape all round the jig and onto the rim. Now the spokes can be added without all the hassle of trying to keep the jig, rim and hub all in one place without everything moving. roymattblack attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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With all parts of the rim and hub firmly held in place on the jig it is now quite easy to fit the spokes by just feeding them through the relevant hub hole, turning the whole assembly on it's side and 'wiggling' it - the spoke will drop through the hole, pointing in the right direction with no need to use tweezers. The tweezers can then be used just to lift the spoke into the correct rim slot. Apply CA to both ends of the spoke and move on to the next one. I fitted all the spokes in layer 1 in about 15 minutes. roymattblack attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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Now the next layer of spokes can be added. Feed a spoke through any upper hole in the same was as the lower spokes. Turn the rim on its edge and 'wiggle' it until the spoke drops through fully. Check the spoke crosses 3 spokes underneath and using tweezers, the spoke will 'click' into place in the correct slot. Apply a dot of CA for security if you wish. roymattblack attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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A small blade screwdriver is useful for pressing the ends of the spokes into the grooves. Take care not to slip, and skewer your hand! roymattblack attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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When all the spokes have been fitted, peel back the masking tape but do not fully remove yet. Fit the central rim ring and fix with the screws. Take care not to over tighten them as this will strip the plastic threads. Remove all masking tape and the retaining screw in the hub centre. Carefully take the wheel from the jig... roymattblack attached the following image(s):
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 Rank: Semi-Pro Level 2 Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2017 Posts: 77 Points: 230 Location: Liverpool UK
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Hi Roy Are you using test pieces for this? I cannot emphasise enough that the pin on the second row will not fit with the centre hub and outer rim flush to the jig. It's too short. The photo below shows several inner spokes in place, including one that is twelve spokes away from the other five. The wheel is tensioned correctly by the inner hub being rotated anti-clockwise to give the best chance for everything fitting. The outer ring is taped flush to the jig. With all six inner spokes in place the outer spoke will not reach its hook over point. It's about 1mm too short. The only way I can make it fit is by tilting the centre hub slightly towards that hook over point but that forced the inner spoke that is twelve spokes away from the others out of place. I've tried pressing down on the outer spoke when I have put it in place and tried to get the opposite inner spoke in by pressing down and out on that too but there's no way it will fit. Another poster suggested raising the outside of the jig a couple of mm. This would put it near the same height as the upper spoke to give slightly shorter travel to the hook over point. That is what I'm going to try next. AlecK attached the following image(s): Happy modelling
Alec
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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Hello Aleck.
Yes, I used the test parts but I've just compared everything to the 'kit' parts and they are all identical except the new centre of the hub has two locating teeth for future use.
However, close examination of the new hub fitted to the new jig, shows the hub held away from the jig by about 1mm.
This would raise the upper layer of spokes from the hub.
I'll build the new parts but I'm going to trim the locating spline on the jig by a fraction so that the wheel hub sits flat on the jig.
Roy.
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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A new rim is being assembled but this time using only the 'new' kit parts, and not the test issue parts. As before, I have screwed the central hub in place and taped the outer rim to the jig. The first layer of spokes was added as before, quite quickly - around 20 minutes. The 2nd 'upper'layer is being added but fitting spokes at opposite sided as the construction proceeds. This will help to keep everything central and under equal stress. The outer ends of the spokes are pushed into place using the end of a small screwdriver. Keep your other hand out of the way! roymattblack attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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The remaining spokes fitted. A few were tight in their locating points but could be pushed into place with the end of a small screwdriver - other hand well clear. There doesn't appear to be any difference between the test kit parts and the new kit parts, other than the two locating tabs on the inner hub. Total time to assemble, about 45 minutes including photo's, editing and upload. I imagine that after the 2nd - 3rd wheel, it could be done in about half an hour. I will concede that assembly is not easy, and 'part-time' hobbyists might find it easier to assemble the wheels 'wrong' with only 2 crossing points in the spoke pattern. However, I am not in any way recommending this. roymattblack attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Semi-Pro Level 2 Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2017 Posts: 77 Points: 230 Location: Liverpool UK
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Thanks Roy. I'm glad it worked for you. Happy modelling
Alec
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 Rank: Vice-Master  Groups: Registered
Joined: 12/01/2017 Posts: 572 Points: 1,731 Location: Cambridgeshire
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Thanks Roy. I knew I had mine wrong, I believed there was too much lateral play in the central hub, and indeed, each spoke only crossed 2 on the lower layer. For a while, I was stumped. Thanks to your pictures, I believe I can get this behind me and get a decent, properly tensioned set of wheels. Current Builds
Eaglemoss: Ecto-1, BTTF Delorean [Installing Mods]
Hachette: T800 Endoskeleton
Agora Models Shelby Cobra 427 [Plate 031]
BanDai 1:5000 Imperial Star Destroyer
AMT 1991 U.S.S. Enterprise Bridge [Installing Mods & Lights]
Finished Builds
Deagostini: R2-D2 [Never getting batteries]
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 Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
Joined: 27/02/2017 Posts: 410 Points: 1,220 Location: Lancashire
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Hi, Excellent guide Roy, As I did mine wrong  (x2 and glued) I'll have to wait until the next wheel is supplied before following your advise but thanks for taking the time to do this  May.
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Official Builds, Administrators, Moderator, Global Forum Support, Registered Joined: 04/06/2011 Posts: 4,508 Points: 13,684 Location: ipswich
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Thanks guys.
I hope my waffle is helpful to a few.
I'm by no means any more knowledgeable than anyone else, but after building 15 Pocher 'classic' wire wheels in the past (3 cars, 5 wheels each), a few old thoughts came into play and they worked out on this one.
Roy.
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered
Joined: 27/01/2014 Posts: 5,060 Points: 14,980
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Really good guide Roy, the wheels look fantastic completed with los of detail 
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Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
Joined: 25/09/2013 Posts: 112 Points: 308 Location: UK
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Thanks for the guide Roy. I was a bit apprehensive about tackling the spoking after reading some of the posts here, but your post and the tutorial that has been posted reassured me. I actually found the wheel quite straightforward, if a tad fiddly, and quite enjoyable to do. I pretty much followed the official intructions, just using double sided tape, no glue, and it worked fine. I did tape the rim to the jig as you suggest and found that helpful, and I fitted the spokes alternately on opposing sides of the hub to even out the tension. The wheel looks great already- now waiting for my next pack to arrive so that I can get it finished!! 
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 Rank: Newbie Groups: Registered
Joined: 03/05/2017 Posts: 3 Points: 12 Location: Bay Area, CA
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AlecK wrote:
...I cannot emphasise enough that the pin on the second row will not fit with the centre hub and outer rim flush to the jig. It's too short. The photo below shows several inner spokes in place, including one that is twelve spokes away from the other five. The wheel is tensioned correctly by the inner hub being rotated anti-clockwise to give the best chance for everything fitting. The outer ring is taped flush to the jig.
With all six inner spokes in place the outer spoke will not reach its hook over point. It's about 1mm too short. The only way I can make it fit is by tilting the centre hub slightly towards that hook over point but that forced the inner spoke that is twelve spokes away from the others out of place. I've tried pressing down on the outer spoke when I have put it in place and tried to get the opposite inner spoke in by pressing down and out on that too but there's no way it will fit.
Another poster suggested raising the outside of the jig a couple of mm. This would put it near the same height as the upper spoke to give slightly shorter travel to the hook over point.
That is what I'm going to try next.
 Hello, Alec -
Just checking in to see if you've had any success since your last post, because my results are identical to your picture. On the factory-set jig orientation, there's simply no way the second layer of spokes will reach into the groove on a proper 3-spoke crossover. A 2-spoke cross with the resulting wobbly hub is a plenty "straightforward" assembly for me, but 3? Not for love, money, or a wizard's touch with a small screwdriver.
I'm on my third tear-down and reassembly of the stage 4 spoke layers. My hub is pressed flat against the jig, in as far as it will go, and it needs a good tugging to be freed again. The rim is a bit looser as with everyone else's, and I've gone so far as to drill another indexing hole, about 6mm counter-clockwise from the factory-molded one, to increase tension on the first layer and see if that has any effect bringing the second-layer spokes closer to home. Even with the first layer spokes inserted as far to the right as they'll reach, there's enough play that this approach improves matters a bit, but it doesn't quite solve the problem.
I haven't gotten issues 5-8 yet, but on looking at that metal ring insert meant to go between rim halves in your shot, I wonder if that piece might not help as a spacer between the outer jig and the rim. The problem, assuming the upper and lower spokes are equally offset laterally from their rim insertions, is that if you consider them from a two-dimensional cross section of the hub, the upper spoke is asked to serve as hypotenuse to a lower leg of the same length made horizontal by the jig.
The 3D analysis of everything is of course a little more complex than that, but the right triangle visualization begins to show you why some builders find the wrangle to get the second layer home raising the rim a bit. Set against the factory jig, it is very difficult to see how an arrangement precisely like yours and mine will work, unless the tape holds those second spokes just a bit out of place and the the retainer ring forces them aright, into the inner circumference groove, once it's tightened down.
Don't know about you, but I find trivializations of this problem a bit dismissive, particularly if early adopters possibly lucked out with better-indexed hub keys. I'm over forty years into building and solving engineering problems in model car kits, and two decades into reviewing kits for a national publication besides. If it grinds me to a halt - well, with all due respect, it's a bit more than a mole hill.
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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Please note that Roy's statement at post #1 in this topic saying that "the wheel can be assembled following the instructions", does not take into account the issue 5 photo error as follows:
Issue 5, Steps 2-18 and 21-24 show photos of the wheel being spoked using a '2 spoke' crossover pattern. However, the spoking pattern in the Jaguar drawing shown in issue 5 shows a '3 spoke' crossover that was used in the issue 4 instructions - a 3 spoke crossover is the correct method of assembly - you should ignore the 2 spoke assembly pattern. This information is also noted within the official build.
A spoking tutorial can be found here which is linked to the Official Build: http://forum.model-space...spx?g=posts&t=23122
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