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Tiger Ausf.E
#1 Posted : 03 March 2012 14:07:54

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I have posted this on other sites, but thought I would throw it in here to a new audience! It is mainly concerning the painting of German AFV's and is really intended to counter all those people who jump up and down and get excited about the exact colour of paint colours on German Tanks:

I have been trying to look into ways of improving my models lately and one of the ways I thought would help would be in the painting.

So if anyone can add to this please feel free to do so, after all, we can only improve!

Obviously how you paint your model really decides whether it will live or die, realism is only a paint colour away. For example, you have King Tiger painted fararri red and title it "Russian front 1945" it is not going to matter one bit if you have all the tiny details correct, the model will be judged by the colour of the paint.

This got me to thinking about the paints issued by the various hobby suppliers themselves. If you look at your painting instructions on model kits you will always see that they recommend various colours from various manufacturers. Why is this? O.k, So we understand that Tamiya would recommend Tamiya paints, why would Revell recommend Humbrol? Or Dragon recommend Gunze Sangyo?

Puzzling one at that!

Another point is this; where do the companies get their interpretation of colours from?
A startling fact is that many get their ideas from Museums and from photographs, matching up the colour from Film or photos. Now anyone who knows anything will know that you cannot use a photograph of a tank to justify you saying that this is the real colour or what colour was what in Black and white films or photos.

It seems that the only correct way to interpret the colours is to read the "Heer memorandum" that gives orders in regards to colours that should be used and when! But then again, this does not say what shade RAL 8017 was!

What makes it more confusing is that Tamiya once visited the Patton museum in America and got permision to take of the overspray the museum staff had put on to an SDKFZ 251. They found that the Dunkelgelb was 5 different shades! So Tamiya based their XF60 (Dark Yellow) on the mid shade.

So theoretically the Tamiya shade of Dunkelgelb should be the most valid?

But it gets worse!

Historically RAL 6003 (OliveGrun) Ral 8017 (Braune) and RAL 8002 (Signalbraune) were supplied in 5 kilo tins in paste concentrate for dilution by tank crews.This could be acheived with water, Oil or Petrol, indeed in one case urine! The final intensity of colour depended on the dilution, so RAL 6003 (olivegrun) could appear almost black if undiluted and pea green if diluted too much.

Another factor to consider aswell is that many paints are based on 1/1 scale colours, ie, the real thing. Many modellers will dilute the colour with as much as 25% white in order to lighten the colour and make it more scale effective.

Most German AFV's were fitted with compressors so that spray guns could be used to paint the vehicle. So most German vehicles were Spray painted in the field. (Though the Ambush scheme was applied by hand.)

Although all model companies have advised what colour paints should be used, and whos to use, only two companies have researched the subject thouroughly and from the right source. These Companies are Gunze Sangyo from Japan and also Hannants from England.

In May 1991 both pooled resources and approached the RAL Deutches Institut Fur Gutesicherund Und Kennzeichung e.V. (loosely translated "The German institute of Quality control and Identification) It was founded in 1925 and and is funded by the German chemical industry. This is the equivalent of the British Standards or the U.S Federal Color Standards.

Not only did Hannants ad Gunze receive comprehensive information on the chronological introduction and deletion of second world war colours but were also given authentic paint chips.

From these Chips Hannants produced the full 10 shades. Gunze a few less.

Funnily enough "Denkelgelb" the most important colour 1943 onwards does not have an official RAL number! The paint chip supplied by RAL is often claimed to be too dark or too olive.

So, if you are interested in painting your wagon the correct shades for an added air of authenticity here are the colours and Hannants codes in brackets) for you:

RAL 7016 Anthrazitgrau (X802) Used by Luftwaffe ground forces (Herman Goerring division)

RAL 7008 Khakibruan (X804) Used by Afrikacorp and in crete 1941. No Official RAL description of colour. Used in conjunction with RAL 8000

Ral 7027 (x809) Used by Afrikacorp after 1941. Again no official RAL description of colour. used in conjunction with RAL8020.

RAL 6003 Olivgrun (X806) Used in conjunction with RAL 8017 and RAL Dunkelgelb.

RAL 8002 Signalbraun (X801) used in conjunction with RAL 7021 especially before 1939.

RAL 8000 Grunbraun (X803) Used by Afrikacorpand in crete 1941. No official RAL Description of colour used in conjunction with RAL7027

RAL 8020 (X808) used by Afrikacorp after 1941. No official description of colour used in conjunction with RAL 7027

Dunkelgelb (X805) used as standard colour from Feb 1943. No official RAL number, used in conjunction with RAL 6003 and RAL 8017

RAL 8017 Braune (X807) Used in conjunction with RAL 6003 and Dunkelgelb.


But then again, bear in mind that for your model tank, none of the crew were micheal Angelo or Picasso, they would have diluted the paint differently and depending on what the used (water) the paint would fade, more prevelant toward end of war)

Next time someone looks at your model and says something about the paintwork simply say, "Well, you just can't get the staff these days!" blame the tank crew!BigGrin
arpurchase
#2 Posted : 04 March 2012 10:35:42

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BigGrin Most intresting and informative post,so basicley your saying any shade is right[of the corect colours of course]
regards
Andy
Current builds:-C57,Zero, Lamborghini Countach, Caldercraft HMS Agamemnon,Robi,R2-D2, MFH Cobra .

Jack Sparrow
#3 Posted : 04 March 2012 13:18:11

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There is no right or wrong shade. It is something that has been heavily discussed on the Tank Forum and we have all come to the same conclusion!!BigGrin If you take into consideration things like Sun Bleaching, sand wear, or how it was mixed or applied, any shade of German Dark Yellow (Tamiya XF60) is ok. Its only 'Rivet Counters' that complain, and who cares what they think!!!!!Flapper LOL BigGrin
Tiger Ausf.E
#4 Posted : 05 March 2012 15:15:06

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arpurchase wrote:
BigGrin Most intresting and informative post,so basicley your saying any shade is right[of the corect colours of course]
regards
Andy


Hi Andy, very much so!

As Jack Says, vehicles constantly in the field very rarely stay the colour they were originally painted. Panzer grey for example, in poland many of the vehicles look almost blue due to the conditions and the fact that the campaign did not last very long, however, The vehicles in France took on an almost white appearance due to road dust, sun bleaching etc. The effects of the Russian Campaign etc produced a largely different effect on the vehicles. I think Jase summed it up perfectly in his article where he suggested that research be done on vehicles before they are weathered and painted. That way you will get to produce a more realistic model.

All companies will tell us they have the correct shade for any vehicle etc.... But really you can use any company to be honest.
jase
#5 Posted : 08 March 2012 09:13:21

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I worked in the defnse industry for a number of years and as a buyer i was responcible for buying the military paints. i can tell you that it is not an exact since today so guess it was less so in the 30s and 40s. the shade of paint changes from batch to batch so you will never get the exact shade because there is not one.

Vary late war German AFVs left the factory only in undercoat due to lack of materials.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.”
-Mark Twain
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