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der Gohfelder wrote:Hi Alan! Don´t worry! Do it like I do it: I don´t have any problems, I have challenges!  Regards, Bernd Thanks Bernd, I don't have problems, I have solutions...... Whether I choose the correct solution is a different matter....  Regards Alan
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 Rank: Super-Elite        Groups: Registered, Forum Support Team, Administrators, Global Forum Support Team, Moderator, Official Builds Joined: 09/11/2012 Posts: 8,520 Points: 24,651 Location: East midlands
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Hi Alan, Ref: your post #826 with the port hole jig, I have a newbie type of question. Your jig is only checking it`s true position in 2 Dimensions and the model is obviously a 3D object, so without trying to teach you, as a more advanced modeller how to suck eggs, my question is this. Would you see it as a need to put another spirit level on the piece of the jig that actually enters the port so as to ascertain that the cut into the hull is level to what would be sea level,or is there not enough possible movement to cause a problem? I`m struggling to find an easy way to explain this, so if it does not make sense, I will try and make up some sort of a diagram to help.  Regards delboy271155 (Derek) COME BACK GUY FAWKES "YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU"
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delboy271155 wrote:Hi Alan, Ref: your post #826 with the port hole jig, I have a newbie type of question. Your jig is only checking it`s true position in 2 Dimensions and the model is obviously a 3D object, so without trying to teach you, as a more advanced modeller how to suck eggs, my question is this. Would you see it as a need to put another spirit level on the piece of the jig that actually enters the port so as to ascertain that the cut into the hull is level to what would be sea level,or is there not enough possible movement to cause a problem? I`m struggling to find an easy way to explain this, so if it does not make sense, I will try and make up some sort of a diagram to help. Regards delboy271155 (Derek) Hi Derek, I think I know what you are saying... Hope I can answer your query... The port jig I made is multi functional as I mentioned in my posts but when attaching the level to the cross piece you must ensure the level is set exactly parallel to the cross piece, it did that by ensuring the cross piece and level were placed on a flat level surface..... The jig is 12x12mm and the pictures show it being used in the horizontal plane, by turning the jig 90 degrees you can then check the vertical plane. The final part of the process ensuring the port is level from outside to inside will be done when we come to lining the ports..... Finally before using the jig you must ensure the ship is level both from bow to stern and port to starboard.... Hope this goes some way to answering your question..... Finally I will say once you cut the ports final adjustments can be made through the lining and second planking process.... 
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered, Forum Support Team, Administrators, Global Forum Support Team, Moderator, Official Builds Joined: 09/11/2012 Posts: 8,520 Points: 24,651 Location: East midlands
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Gandale wrote:delboy271155 wrote:Hi Alan, Ref: your post #826 with the port hole jig, I have a newbie type of question. Your jig is only checking it`s true position in 2 Dimensions and the model is obviously a 3D object, so without trying to teach you, as a more advanced modeller how to suck eggs, my question is this. Would you see it as a need to put another spirit level on the piece of the jig that actually enters the port so as to ascertain that the cut into the hull is level to what would be sea level,or is there not enough possible movement to cause a problem? I`m struggling to find an easy way to explain this, so if it does not make sense, I will try and make up some sort of a diagram to help. Regards delboy271155 (Derek) Hi Derek, I think I know what you are saying... Hope I can answer your query... The port jig I made is multi functional as I mentioned in my posts but when attaching the level to the cross piece you must ensure the level is set exactly parallel to the cross piece, it did that by ensuring the cross piece and level were placed on a flat level surface..... The jig is 12x12mm and the pictures show it being used in the horizontal plane, by turning the jig 90 degrees you can then check the vertical plane. The final part of the process ensuring the port is level from outside to inside will be done when we come to lining the ports..... Finally before using the jig you must ensure the ship is level both from bow to stern and port to starboard.... Hope this goes some way to answering your question..... Finally I will say once you cut the ports final adjustments can be made through the lining and second planking process.... Yep, sorry Alan, This silly old fool missed the bit about turning the jig for the second plane. DOH and thrice DOH. Thanks for the old foggies explanation it now makes sense.  Regards delboy271155 (Derek) COME BACK GUY FAWKES "YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU"
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delboy271155 wrote:Gandale wrote:delboy271155 wrote:Hi Alan, Ref: your post #826 with the port hole jig, I have a newbie type of question. Your jig is only checking it`s true position in 2 Dimensions and the model is obviously a 3D object, so without trying to teach you, as a more advanced modeller how to suck eggs, my question is this. Would you see it as a need to put another spirit level on the piece of the jig that actually enters the port so as to ascertain that the cut into the hull is level to what would be sea level,or is there not enough possible movement to cause a problem? I`m struggling to find an easy way to explain this, so if it does not make sense, I will try and make up some sort of a diagram to help. Regards delboy271155 (Derek) Hi Derek, I think I know what you are saying... Hope I can answer your query... The port jig I made is multi functional as I mentioned in my posts but when attaching the level to the cross piece you must ensure the level is set exactly parallel to the cross piece, it did that by ensuring the cross piece and level were placed on a flat level surface..... The jig is 12x12mm and the pictures show it being used in the horizontal plane, by turning the jig 90 degrees you can then check the vertical plane. The final part of the process ensuring the port is level from outside to inside will be done when we come to lining the ports..... Finally before using the jig you must ensure the ship is level both from bow to stern and port to starboard.... Hope this goes some way to answering your question..... Finally I will say once you cut the ports final adjustments can be made through the lining and second planking process.... Yep, sorry Alan, This silly old fool missed the bit about turning the jig for the second plane. DOH and thrice DOH. Thanks for the old foggies explanation it now makes sense. Regards delboy271155 (Derek) Derek, apologies to you, I may have inadvertantly caused you some confusion as I realised I left out one key element on the instructions I gave you but could not correct it today due to my being at work.... .. Simply turning the port jig 90 degrees is not enough as it will give you no reading at all, what I forgot to mention is I also use the set square which has a spirit level on it... Hope this pic makes that point a lot clearer....  .. Again, apologies if I have caused you any confusion.... Regards Alan Gandale attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered, Forum Support Team, Administrators, Global Forum Support Team, Moderator, Official Builds Joined: 09/11/2012 Posts: 8,520 Points: 24,651 Location: East midlands
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Hi Alan, Thanks for the little message, but as we are both apparently having grey moments, , I was thinking of a third elevation to your jig, OMG  . So, now, what I was thinking is, when your jig is in the gun port as you had cut and shown in the pic, you had a plumb on the top bar of the "T". I was thinking you may need one on what would be the upright of the "T" so as to make sure that the top/bottom faces of the port were not facing seaward/ or skyward. Hope this explains what I`m on about, if not it will be diagram time, which will test the old grey matter again!!!!! Best regards delboy271155 (Derek) COME BACK GUY FAWKES "YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU"
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delboy271155 wrote:Hi Alan, Thanks for the little message, but as we are both apparently having grey moments, , I was thinking of a third elevation to your jig, OMG . So, now, what I was thinking is, when your jig is in the gun port as you had cut and shown in the pic, you had a plumb on the top bar of the "T". I was thinking you may need one on what would be the upright of the "T" so as to make sure that the top/bottom faces of the port were not facing seaward/ or skyward. Hope this explains what I`m on about, if not it will be diagram time, which will test the old grey matter again!!!!! Best regards delboy271155 (Derek) Hi Derek, as I mentioned previously, the squareness (if that's a word.... ) of that plane will be done when we line the ports.... Regards Alan
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered, Forum Support Team, Administrators, Global Forum Support Team, Moderator, Official Builds Joined: 09/11/2012 Posts: 8,520 Points: 24,651 Location: East midlands
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Gandale wrote:delboy271155 wrote:Hi Alan, Thanks for the little message, but as we are both apparently having grey moments, , I was thinking of a third elevation to your jig, OMG . So, now, what I was thinking is, when your jig is in the gun port as you had cut and shown in the pic, you had a plumb on the top bar of the "T". I was thinking you may need one on what would be the upright of the "T" so as to make sure that the top/bottom faces of the port were not facing seaward/ or skyward. Hope this explains what I`m on about, if not it will be diagram time, which will test the old grey matter again!!!!! Best regards delboy271155 (Derek) Hi Derek, as I mentioned previously, the squareness (if that's a word.... ) of that plane will be done when we line the ports.... Regards Alan Cheers Alan, Yep I think that word will about do, . Come on the day when I get to that point, just spent two days cutting and resetting starboard side of rib #26 (that includes plenty of epoxy drying time). See: Model making know how! Regards delboy271155 (Derek) COME BACK GUY FAWKES "YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU"
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Ok, feel I have to bring to the attention of others following on behind me, it was something that was kindly outlined to me and when I took a closer look I found it stood out like a sore thumb. .. The more I looked at it the more it bugged me, to such an extent I couldn't resist any more but had to undergo a repair and movement on one of the ports on the bottom deck... The port is question is between ribs 16 and 20 and the instructions say the measurement is 15 mm from rib 16. As can be seen by the pic it clearly looks odd and out of place....  Gandale attached the following image(s):
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Decided the port had to move and I measured it out to 23mm from the centre of rib 16. .. First thing I did was to close the left hand side of the port using some offcuts of bamboo, allowed the glue to dry and sanded down to the correct profile of the hull... .. Then set oubout moving and cutting the right hand side of the port to the correct width of 13mm. Squared and tidied the gun port edges.. Now I feel it is in the correct place and I believe it looks a lot better.... Gandale attached the following image(s):
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Finally I checked the alignment of the port and ensuring the repair had the correct profile, did this by looking along the profile of the hull from both directions.... .. I realise some builders may decide to stick to the measurements outlined in the magazine but at least now the issue has been highlighted enabling builders to make their own decisions.... ... Will undergo the same repair to the other side when I have completed cutting out the gun ports on this side.... Regards Alan Gandale attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered, Forum Support Team, Administrators, Global Forum Support Team, Moderator, Official Builds Joined: 09/11/2012 Posts: 8,520 Points: 24,651 Location: East midlands
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Hi Alan, Firstly the pics of the hull look "MEGA" and then a bucket load of thanks for pointing out the gun port layout. I`m sure people will look on your build and then make the correct judgement call. To that end I am sometimes grateful for a few weeks delay that have accumulated in my deliveries of parts, so I don`t go in to fast! Regards delboy271155 (DErek) COME BACK GUY FAWKES "YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU"
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 Rank: Pro  Groups: Registered
Joined: 24/09/2012 Posts: 491 Points: 1,452 Location: London
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Wow never noticed that before, thats a good thing to point out, and now looking at it, it would look much better as you've done, i think i'll probably take up the actions as you've done, great work and thanks! Processing - Progressing
Previous builds: HMS Victory
Current build: HMS Sovereign of the seas
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delboy271155 wrote:Hi Alan, Firstly the pics of the hull look "MEGA" and then a bucket load of thanks for pointing out the gun port layout. I`m sure people will look on your build and then make the correct judgement call. To that end I am sometimes grateful for a few weeks delay that have accomeulated in my deliveries of parts, so I don`t go in to fast! Regards delboy271155 (DErek) Hi Derek, thanks for those very kind comments, it's appreciated... .. I agree, it is up to each builder now to decide whether to go with the mag or to make the change as outlined.... ..Thanks again... Regards Alan
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Admiral Anti Spiral wrote:Wow never noticed that before, thats a good thing to point out, and now looking at it, it would look much better as you've done, i think i'll probably take up the actions as you've done, great work and thanks! Hi Admiral, thanks for looking in and if it helps others then that makes me happy..... I do think it looks at lot better but maybe not everyone will agree... Regards Alan
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I really don't want to say this Alan,but the Sovereign is one of the few ships of this period that didn't have consistent gunport spacings.I know it looks odd but the gaps between the ports on the after end of the lower gun deck are supposed to be odd.I noticed this early on in the Italian forum and people were posting lots of messages saying the instructions are wrong.I am afraid they are correct.However it is your model and if you feel you prefer it that way then good for you.
Kind Regards Nigel
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NMBROOK wrote:I really don't want to say this Alan,but the Sovereign is one of the few ships of this period that didn't have consistent gunport spacings.I know it looks odd but the gaps between the ports on the after end of the lower gun deck are supposed to be odd.I noticed this early on in the Italian forum and people were posting lots of messages saying the instructions are wrong.I am afraid they are correct.However it is your model and if you feel you prefer it that way then good for you.
Kind Regards Nigel Hi Nigel, I appreciate your comments and am happy you have pointed this out and it is right you should.... It is just my feeling, it is something to me that just looked too odd for my liking which is why I have moved the port.... Also, I have said it is up to each builder to decide for themselves how they want it to look..... This is only my interpretation and I do feel happier about how it looks, all the other ports are as the instructions portray.... Thanks again... Best regards Alan
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Like I said Alan good for you ,I only mentioned it as I didn't want people thinking the instructions are wrong. Kind Regards Nigel
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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Was just going to bed Alan and something crossed my mind.The port you have moved sits under the main chainwale.In view of how close this will be to the chainwale I have a feeling deag may or may not have designed the deadeye strops to fan around these ports instead of being nailed above them.Not only that the open port lid may foul a strop when open if they do finish above.Even the Italian forum has not reached that stage so I can't be more conclusive.I just felt I should mention this as it may or may not be detrimental to your build later down the line. Kind Regards Nigel
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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It's likely that the measurement is incorrect, because the image at the bottom of pages 10, shows the port to be almost central between the two upper ports, and again in step 23 on page 12 and also in the ports cut-out image at step 28 on page 13.
In this instance I went with the image rather than the measurement, because all future magazine step images also reflect this.
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