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 Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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Hello Mark,
Your wash looks good enough and certainly lifts the detail out of the overall whiteness of the bomb bay?! I see you have used an overall wash across the whole of the panels, which is one method and works well enough, but you could also try improving on that further by alternatively using what is called a 'pin wash', where instead of brushing your wash across the whole panel, you use a smaller brush with a pointed tip (but with a good sized body of hair to act as a reservoir for the wash fluid?) then just touch the tip of the brush along the edges of any detail whereby capillary action will draw your wash out of the brush and along the edges of the detail? That way you will avoid any staining in areas where you don't want it? If you want a generally grubby/dirty appearance to the whole area then the overall wash using a broad brush that you appear to have used here is then the better method?
Also, you'll notice that your wash looks rather stark, or too black and if I may say so a little unrealistic because of it(not a criticism Mark, just an observation, so please forgive me if it looks that way)? That is a common mistake amongst newcomers to the wash method and is due to you having used a straight black as your chosen wash colour? Better to use a mix of a very dark grey (almost black) with some dark brown added to it in a 60:40(ish) ratio which will give a more natural grime/shadow colour and look less stark?
Another tip for you is to try using oil paints instead of enamels for your washes, thinned with oil paint thinners is best, but white spirit is ok even if not quite as good as proper oil thinners? Any cheap artists' oil paints will suffice as a starting point but normal oil paints (which use Linseed Oil as a binder) can take a while to dry fully even when heavily thinned? I use Winsor & Newton 'Alkyd' oils which are chemically different using modern resins instead of Linseed Oil and will dry much quicker and in a few hours easily, but can be fully cured (for modelling purposes at least) in just 24 hours? I will normally mix my own black, but when feeling lazy, 'Paynes Grey' is a good choice and mix it with something like 'Burnt Umber' for the brown element? Thin your oil paint mix heavily until it is very watery and flows easily around any details and don't worry if it all looks too much or too dark at first as it will dry lighter and shrink down around the detail as it does so. The beauty of using oil paints over enamels is that it can be removed from areas that you don't want it, or where mistakes have been made, even after dried, by using a cotton bud soaked in the oil thinners, whereas enamels once dried hard can be more difficult to remove as they dry harder?
You just need to experiment and have a play on an old model or even a Lego brick or in fact, anything with raised detail will suffice, mixing your oil washes with more or less thinners until you have the right viscosity or transparency and the right base colour mix for what you want to do (black/brown isn't always the best choice depending on what subject you are modelling) and that will then put you on the road to understanding how better to control the effect? It will all become easier eventually with practice, but practice is very important and very necessary to get the best results from the method?
Hope that all helps Mark? If you need any more help just ask? Cheers mate.  
Kev 
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Just had a catch up and its certainly coming along!  I use artists oils for my washes, flows much better and easy to remove if its over done.
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 Rank: Vice-Master     Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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ModelMania wrote:Hello Mark,
Your wash looks good enough and certainly lifts the detail out of the overall whiteness of the bomb bay?! I see you have used an overall wash across the whole of the panels, which is one method and works well enough, but you could also try improving on that further by alternatively using what is called a 'pin wash', where instead of brushing your wash across the whole panel, you use a smaller brush with a pointed tip (but with a good sized body of hair to act as a reservoir for the wash fluid?) then just touch the tip of the brush along the edges of any detail whereby capillary action will draw your wash out of the brush and along the edges of the detail? That way you will avoid any staining in areas where you don't want it? If you want a generally grubby/dirty appearance to the whole area then the overall wash using a broad brush that you appear to have used here is then the better method?
Also, you'll notice that your wash looks rather stark, or too black and if I may say so a little unrealistic because of it(not a criticism Mark, just an observation, so please forgive me if it looks that way)? That is a common mistake amongst newcomers to the wash method and is due to you having used a straight black as your chosen wash colour? Better to use a mix of a very dark grey (almost black) with some dark brown added to it in a 60:40(ish) ratio which will give a more natural grime/shadow colour and look less stark?
Another tip for you is to try using oil paints instead of enamels for your washes, thinned with oil paint thinners is best, but white spirit is ok even if not quite as good as proper oil thinners? Any cheap artists' oil paints will suffice as a starting point but normal oil paints (which use Linseed Oil as a binder) can take a while to dry fully even when heavily thinned? I use Winsor & Newton 'Alkyd' oils which are chemically different using modern resins instead of Linseed Oil and will dry much quicker and in a few hours easily, but can be fully cured (for modelling purposes at least) in just 24 hours? I will normally mix my own black, but when feeling lazy, 'Paynes Grey' is a good choice and mix it with something like 'Burnt Umber' for the brown element? Thin your oil paint mix heavily until it is very watery and flows easily around any details and don't worry if it all looks too much or too dark at first as it will dry lighter and shrink down around the detail as it does so. The beauty of using oil paints over enamels is that it can be removed from areas that you don't want it, or where mistakes have been made, even after dried, by using a cotton bud soaked in the oil thinners, whereas enamels once dried hard can be more difficult to remove as they dry harder?
You just need to experiment and have a play on an old model or even a Lego brick or in fact, anything with raised detail will suffice, mixing your oil washes with more or less thinners until you have the right viscosity or transparency and the right base colour mix for what you want to do (black/brown isn't always the best choice depending on what subject you are modelling) and that will then put you on the road to understanding how better to control the effect? It will all become easier eventually with practice, but practice is very important and very necessary to get the best results from the method?
Hope that all helps Mark? If you need any more help just ask? Cheers mate.
Kev
Hi Kev . Thanks for looking in and your valuable advice which I will certainly take on board. I am really pleased with your help here and its as you say that I do need to practice more. I do have some Mig oil paints but am unsure .what oil thinners to use. Please could you put a link up where I could get some Winsor & Newton 'Alkyd' oils and would they work with the Mig oil paints ?. Thanks again for your valuable advice. Best regards. Mark
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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Nemesis wrote:Just had a catch up and its certainly coming along! I use artists oils for my washes, flows much better and easy to remove if its over done. Hi Nem . Thanks for looking in and your great advice which I am very pleased about and is very welcome. The weathering side of modelling is new to me and so I do value the advice yourself and Kev give to me. Thanks and best regards. Mark
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,827 Points: -13,348
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mark 2 wrote:Hi Kev . Thanks for looking in and your valuable advice which I will certainly take on board. I am really pleased with your help here and its as you say that I do need to practice more. I do have some Mig oil paints but am unsure .what oil thinners to use. Please could you put a link up where I could get some Winsor & Newton 'Alkyd' oils and would they work with the Mig oil paints ?. Thanks again for your valuable advice. Best regards. Mark
Hello Mark,
Here is a link to the manufacturers home site where it shows the complete range of 59 colours that they produce but you should only need one or two of those to begin with?:
http://www.winsornewton....kWF0norYjS0YCuOswcto%3D
They are also available from any good art shop but make sure you ask for the 'Alkyd' range as all others will be slow-drying oil paints? Also on ebay.
Not sure if they would work with the Mig Oils, which I presume is from their 'Abteilung' range, as I've never used the Mig paints personally so I can't give a definitive answer on that one I'm afraid, but I would think it is likely they are compatible simply because the Mig oils are specifically designed for modellers and as such would need to be fairly quick drying, which suggests to me that they too are made with polymer resins as in the W&N Alkyd artists oils which would then make them compatible? If in doubt just try mixing the two on some scrap material and see what happens, as I said, it's all about practice and experimentation really but I don't think you will have any problems mixing the two as I'm sure they are both resin based oil paints? There is no reason why you can't mix resin based oil paints with linseed based oil paints. The simple truth is that linseed is an organic oil and takes a long time to evaporate sufficiently to become dry, whereas resin based oils are man-made and are engineered to dry much quicker, so all you would be doing by mixing them is adding slow drying to fast drying which will result in something in between depending on the mix ratio? You'd end up with a medium drying oil. As I said just try it and see, but don't worry too much about the technicalities of it all, it'll either work or it won't but suspect it'll be fine. Just don't experiment on your expensive model - use scrap first!
The thinners that I use for all of my oil paints is called 'Sansodor' again from Winsor & Newton which can be found on their site here ... :
http://www.winsornewton....-oz-75ml-bottle-3021757
... or on ebay? It is available in bigger sizes than the one in the link. It's completely odourless (Sansodor is French for 'scentless') but works the same as turpentine which itself is just a more refined version of white spirit and will thin any oil based paints including enamels, but it isn't designed to thin acrylics which need an entirely different solvent? No reason why you can't stick with your basic white spirit for thinning your Mig oils or the W&N Alkyds, it'll work, but it stinks to high heaven and isn't such good quality as something like Sansodor?
Hope that helps?
Kev
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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ModelMania wrote:mark 2 wrote:Hi Kev . Thanks for looking in and your valuable advice which I will certainly take on board. I am really pleased with your help here and its as you say that I do need to practice more. I do have some Mig oil paints but am unsure .what oil thinners to use. Please could you put a link up where I could get some Winsor & Newton 'Alkyd' oils and would they work with the Mig oil paints ?. Thanks again for your valuable advice. Best regards. Mark
Hello Mark,
Here is a link to the manufacturers home site where it shows the complete range of 59 colours that they produce but you should only need one or two of those to begin with?:
http://www.winsornewton....kWF0norYjS0YCuOswcto%3D
They are also available from any good art shop but make sure you ask for the 'Alkyd' range as all others will be slow-drying oil paints? Also on ebay.
Not sure if they would work with the Mig Oils, which I presume is from their 'Abteilung' range, as I've never used the Mig paints personally so I can't give a definitive answer on that one I'm afraid, but I would think it is likely they are compatible simply because the Mig oils are specifically designed for modellers and as such would need to be fairly quick drying, which suggests to me that they too are made with polymer resins as in the W&N Alkyd artists oils which would then make them compatible? If in doubt just try mixing the two on some scrap material and see what happens, as I said, it's all about practice and experimentation really but I don't think you will have any problems mixing the two as I'm sure they are both resin based oil paints? There is no reason why you can't mix resin based oil paints with linseed based oil paints. The simple truth is that linseed is an organic oil and takes a long time to evaporate sufficiently to become dry, whereas resin based oils are man-made and are engineered to dry much quicker, so all you would be doing by mixing them is adding slow drying to fast drying which will result in something in between depending on the mix ratio? You'd end up with a medium drying oil. As I said just try it and see, but don't worry too much about the technicalities of it all, it'll either work or it won't but suspect it'll be fine. Just don't experiment on your expensive model - use scrap first!
The thinners that I use for all of my oil paints is called 'Sansodor' again from Winsor & Newton which can be found on their site here ... :
http://www.winsornewton....-oz-75ml-bottle-3021757
... or on ebay? It is available in bigger sizes than the one in the link. It's completely odourless (Sansodor is French for 'scentless') but works the same as turpentine which itself is just a more refined version of white spirit and will thin any oil based paints including enamels, but it isn't designed to thin acrylics which need an entirely different solvent? No reason why you can't stick with your basic white spirit for thinning your Mig oils or the W&N Alkyds, it'll work, but it stinks to high heaven and isn't such good quality as something like Sansodor?
Hope that helps?
Kev Hi Kev . Thank you so much for the advice and links. I really am extremely grateful for your time . Best regards. Mark
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 Rank: Elite    Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2011 Posts: 2,239 Points: 6,837 Location: East Sussex
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Hi Mark, I see your build is progressing to a high standard, and with the advise from Kev regarding paint work I am all ready looking forward to the next post. Regards Trev. Work in progress: Tombstone (Scratch) - San Francisco 2. -The Mayflower ( scratch by plan).
OcCre- Santa-Maria (Kit).
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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tf64 wrote:Hi Mark,
I see your build is progressing to a high standard, and with the advise for Kev regarding paint work I am all ready looking forward to the next post.
Regards
Trev. Hi Trev . Thanks for looking in and your encouragement, It really helps a lot. Best regards. Mark
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Looking good mark Current builds:-C57,Zero, Lamborghini Countach, Caldercraft HMS Agamemnon,Robi,R2-D2, MFH Cobra .
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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arpurchase wrote: Looking good mark Hi Andy . Thanks for looking in and commenting. Best regards. Mark
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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Hi Everyone . Here is the last of the photos with the old method of wash. Best regards. Mark mark 2 attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Elite Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2011 Posts: 2,239 Points: 6,837 Location: East Sussex
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Mark your bomb bay look's cool and I am sure with a little more colour (just a bit hear and a bit there) it will come to life, thank you for posting. Regards Trev. Work in progress: Tombstone (Scratch) - San Francisco 2. -The Mayflower ( scratch by plan).
OcCre- Santa-Maria (Kit).
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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tf64 wrote:Mark your bomb bay look's cool and I am sure with a little more colour (just a bit hear and a bit there) it will come to life, thank you for posting.
Regards Trev. Hi Trev . Thanks for looking in. I will be touching up the main undercarriage bay in the near future. Best regards. Mark
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 Rank: Super-Elite  Groups: Registered
Joined: 16/08/2010 Posts: 2,771 Points: 8,344 Location: Brighton
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Love the etch kit look forward to seeing your progress. Ian Current builds.Hachettes build the bismark,HMS Victory, HMS Hood.
Finished Builds Corel HMS Victory cross section.
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Looks fantastic, nice work!!
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looking good Current builds:-C57,Zero, Lamborghini Countach, Caldercraft HMS Agamemnon,Robi,R2-D2, MFH Cobra .
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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ian smith wrote: Love the etch kit look forward to seeing your progress. Ian Hi Ian . Thanks for looking in and your comments. Best regards. Mark
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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Nemesis wrote:Looks fantastic, nice work!! Hi Nem . Thank you for looking in and commenting on my build. Best regards. Mark
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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arpurchase wrote: looking good Hi Andy . Thanks for looking at my build. Best regards. Mark
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Rank: Vice-Master Groups: Registered
Joined: 13/02/2012 Posts: 651 Points: 1,903 Location: croydon
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Hi Everyone . Here is the next instalment of my build. I particularly enjoyed doing the control panels and the Eduard photo etch set looks the nuts although I don't know how much will be seen once inside the fuselage but I will know they are there. Let me know what you all think ?. All comments welcome good or bad and thanks for looking in on my build. Best regards all. Mark mark 2 attached the following image(s):
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