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 Rank: Beginner Level 3  Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/02/2012 Posts: 29 Points: 87 Location: Boston, lincolnshire
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Hi all, I've been slowly collecting the parts for this kit over the last 28 months and I have now finally made a start. Whilst I am very experienced at building wooden kits, namely radio controlled aircraft, using balsa and ply, This will be my first wooden ship kit. I have checked out all the build threads covering not just the Surprise, but other ship models to give me an idea of what is involved. I have built a jig to support the false keel and dry fitted most of the hull formers. My first question, is it best to glue the formers first and then fit the deck? or follow the instructions and fit the deck before gluing? The forward keel section is slightly warped (from former 10 forward) and I'm having some trouble trying to line everything up correctly. The rear part lines up perfectly. If anyone has any advice it would be most appreciated. Regards Jim jimmcoker attached the following image(s):
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 Rank: Pro    Groups: Registered
Joined: 02/04/2013 Posts: 174 Points: 534 Location: Bethlehem PA, USA
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What i did and was quite effective was to overbend in the opposite direction by hand and fill the gaps between the ribs with a full bodied ca glue and hit it with an accelerator to set it instantly. I got the overall bend to less than 1/16" and was able to get it almost perfect then with the planking. You can easily get the rest out by pulling against the warp whilst nailing in the first row of planks. I would fit the deck first. That will help a lot.
There are some links on my thread to a dropbox with some of my early build pics as well as the first part of my build log you might find helpful.
P. S. The deck will do far more than the keel supports to keep things straight.
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 Rank: Super-Elite     Groups: Registered
Joined: 30/01/2013 Posts: 4,604 Points: 13,607 Location: Monmouthshire UK
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Good luck with your build Jim, looks a nice start  Steve
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A very nice start Jim , have you tried wetting the warped part down and putting between two pieces of glass with weights on it if left for a week to dry out this should cure the problem regards Andy  Current builds:-C57,Zero, Lamborghini Countach, Caldercraft HMS Agamemnon,Robi,R2-D2, MFH Cobra .
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Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/02/2012 Posts: 29 Points: 87 Location: Boston, lincolnshire
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Cheers guys Andy, I have tried wetting the concave side of the forward keel and pressed this between the marble and a sheet of glass then about 5lb of weight distributed across the top. I didn't however leave it as long as a week, maybe at most two days. It definitely looked straighter to start off with, but then it slowly gained it's warp again. John, your CA tip sounds interesting, particularly due to the fact that the warp is worst forward of the first former, behind that point I should be able to straighten everything out when I fit the ply deck. I will certainly check out your dropbox links. Your movie version of the ship by the way is absolutely stunning, I can only dream of achieving something half as good. I think I will try again using water and press it for a week, if that fails then I will try using Andy's CA method. It's a slow start, but I know how critical it is getting everything straight so I don't want to rush this step. Thankyou for the help so far, I'll post some more progress once I manage to get past this point!!! Regards Jim
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Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/02/2012 Posts: 29 Points: 87 Location: Boston, lincolnshire
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I've finally managed to progress a little with this build. I am now on Step 5!!! I had the forward part of the keel drying out for nearly a week. Laid flat between the solid marble on my kitchen table and a thick sheet of glass, pressed with about 15lb of weight. This did straighten it out a little, however not enough. The very forward point of the keel had some very complex warped curves, so the only way that I could get it perfectly flat was to make a series of incisions with a razor saw. In my first deviation from the instructions, I have fitted the Stem strengtheners (Parts 35) either side of the forward keel. This has helped a great deal to straighten things up. As can be seen from the second and third photos below, I will have to use the plywood deck to try and line things up, I've not quite worked out where to start with that to be honest, so If anyone has any advice it would be greatly appreciated. At this point none of the formers have been glued, I will fix the deck down first and then glue the whole assembly. One final thing for this post is that I cannot get the holes for the masts to line up with the keel. Did anyone else experience this?? jimmcoker attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Pro  Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/03/2014 Posts: 185 Points: 545 Location: Essex
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He Jim, good start so far, considering the warp. and whilst I am still waiting for the flattening to happen myself, please accept all my good vibes I am sending your way to help you continue doing good!  Just be aware I'll want every single good vibe back when I am where you are now!  Adrie, 'Where to glue or where not to glue, that is the question'
Building: Hr. Ms. de Ruyter (card), Retourschip Batavia (Revell), HMS Surprise (De Agostini)
Built (and sunk): Too many to list
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Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/02/2012 Posts: 29 Points: 87 Location: Boston, lincolnshire
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Cheers Adrie, I'm going to need plenty of good vibes to get past this point!!! I will be cheering you on with yours, hopefully you'll get everything straightened out. I need two sets of hands though to keep every level, straight and lined up at the same time! whilst trying to nail that deck down.
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Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/02/2012 Posts: 29 Points: 87 Location: Boston, lincolnshire
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A little bit of progress has been made tonight. I have finally started to fit the false deck. Well one quarter of it!!! Although the keel is much straighter I found that the top of the slots between the formers were all over the place. Using two right angles either side of parts 35, I checked the forward point of the keel was vertical. (First Photo) I lined up the port forward false deck roughly ensuring that the first and last formers were at a perfect right angle against the keel. Then starting from just behind the first former I clamped a metal right angle against the side of the keel. Using the depth measure at the back of my digital callipers, I positioned the false deck exactly in the centre and placed my first pin. Then it was just a case of working backwards and ensuring that the deck was exactly on the centreline. I'm very happy that it all seems to line up nicely now. Though I think I will leave it at that tonight!! jimmcoker attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/02/2012 Posts: 29 Points: 87 Location: Boston, lincolnshire
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I know I said I would call it a night, but I got a little carried away and managed to get all four deck panels on. However whilst taking a few photos, I seem to get the feeling that there is a twist in the hull. I don't know if there is a problem with my eyes. Everything under the decks is nice and vertical and I've only secured the formers that sit nice and tight against the keel. So I don't know where it starts or how to get rid of it. jimmcoker attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
Joined: 02/04/2013 Posts: 174 Points: 534 Location: Bethlehem PA, USA
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I had a twist in mine as well. One of the reasons I didn't bother with jigging everything up is because no matter how much you jig it, it will spring back on you when you take it out of the jig. That is why I twisted everything back in the opposite direction and then used the thick CA glue I used with accelerator to set it in the opposite direction then when I let off the pressure it snapped back into a more or less straight configuration. You can however pull it back the rest of the way when you plank it. That will be the most critical step.
I used and most highly recommend Elmer's Carpenters Wood Glue Max. It really does a good job on the planks. Best and strongest wood glue I've ever used. I would brush it between each plank and on the formers. Then nail it on and wipe off the surface with a damp rag right away. Then I paint 3 full coats of wood glue on the inside between the planks. The glue actually makes a hard resin surface that makes everything amazingly strong.
Just remember, your first 2 rows on each side will dictate the shape and straightness of the hull
I would also recommend alternating row by row on each side . Do not do one side or the front then back. The planks will swell and shrink with the humidity and it will warp the hull. I've seen guys do it that way, I just wouldn't.
Just my suggestions and opinion, not saying there aren't better ways.
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Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/02/2012 Posts: 29 Points: 87 Location: Boston, lincolnshire
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Thanks for the suggestions Johncal, I'll get myself a couple of bottles of the Elmer's glue. I will also ensure that I keep the planking balanced and do no more that two planks either side at a time. Looking at it earlier, I did seem to sitting better and didn't look twisted at all. It may be down to having the whole evening to myself and having a few too many Budweisers!!! To be honest I'm amazed that I managed to do as much as I did. I think what throws the first photo off in my last post is the fact that the last stern former wasn't aligned correctly. I'll post a photo looking forward to aft a little later. Just one question, how well does the freeboard planking hold the shape once it's removed from the jig? I ask because you mention it would spring back. My confidence is improving with this build, but there is a massive difference between building this ship and building a wing for an RC aircraft. I'll get there tough, I'm not going to be beaten.
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered
Joined: 30/01/2013 Posts: 4,604 Points: 13,607 Location: Monmouthshire UK
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You made some good progress on this last night Jim, maybe it was the Bud It looks pretty straight from what I can see but I would definitely leave it in the jig for as long as you can, if you do your planking while it's in the jig you have a good chance of it ending up straight, but as John said, 2 planks per side and check the frame as you go along incase you have to pull anything off to re-straighten. Steve
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Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/03/2014 Posts: 185 Points: 545 Location: Essex
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Hi Jim, I am glad the problem has rectified itself! But be sure that all the good vibes I can master will still be shipped your way!!!! (For a month or so! ) Adrie. 'Where to glue or where not to glue, that is the question'
Building: Hr. Ms. de Ruyter (card), Retourschip Batavia (Revell), HMS Surprise (De Agostini)
Built (and sunk): Too many to list
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Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/02/2012 Posts: 29 Points: 87 Location: Boston, lincolnshire
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Guys thank you for some very good advice, though it does sound like I need to be 'half cut' to be a successful ship modeller!! The advice I've received so far has really helped me to get this far. It would appear that the twist was down to the fact that the right angle I'd clamped to the forward point of the keel had somehow been pushed a little tight, which had forced the whole front end over slightly. The first two photo's to this post I've attached look a lot better. No progress made tonight, though I have had some thought about the deck. My intention is to 'borrow' Magpies method and use Tanganyika strip instead of the supplied basswood. I already have 25m worth of the Tanganyika strip and went out today and bought some medium oak stain and natural antique oil. I'll have a few practise attempts with the basswood strip first just to see what sort of results I get. (Photo 3) As I stated in my opening post, I have the entire kit collected over a 28 month subscription. Up until now I haven't really looked at any of those little white boxes, I just stashed them away and made sure that I wasn't missing any issues. The box for part 3 not only contained the ply deck and embellishments for the beakhead, it also contained the basswood strip for the deck and two bundles of strip of random sizes and type. I have downloaded the instructions up to the end of the planking stage and up to this point it makes no reference as to what the wood in the random bundles is used for. (See last photo) Finally I am sorry for attaching the photo's in this way and not uploading them properly (a process that I understand) It just seems that when I copy the link from photobucket, the name part of the link seems to change to jimmcoconutster, I've also seen this if anyone quotes one of my posts. No idea why its doing that!!!!! jimmcoker attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
Joined: 02/04/2013 Posts: 174 Points: 534 Location: Bethlehem PA, USA
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stevie_o wrote:You made some good progress on this last night Jim, maybe it was the Bud It looks pretty straight from what I can see but I would definitely leave it in the jig for as long as you can, if you do your planking while it's in the jig you have a good chance of it ending up straight, but as John said, 2 planks per side and check the frame as you go along incase you have to pull anything off to re-straighten. Steve I did ALL the planking with the ship on my lap. As I added the planks, I eyed down the keel to make sure everything was in line before driving the nails home. It is way easier (in my opinion) doing the work on your lap then using the jig and you can easily re-position things and to keep the angles you're hammering at correct. BTW, nothing is better for making sure things are straight than sighting with your eye, nothing! All my masts are within 1/32" when I double checked using that method as well. I used a "nail nailer" to do the nailing the planks to the hull. It's one of those devices you load the nail in and push it. The nailer is how I did the entire hull.I just started the nails that way pushing them in (with the nailer)then tapped them with a tack hammer, then clipped them off and then drove them home. It's much faster and accurate doing it that way. It's easier to hammer against your leg than to try to nail against nothing. Besides, your leg won't hurt the ship. Now, I'm not discounting using the jig, It's just with my style personally that I find it to work as well or better than using a jig, but to each his own.
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Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
Joined: 02/04/2013 Posts: 174 Points: 534 Location: Bethlehem PA, USA
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johncal wrote:stevie_o wrote:You made some good progress on this last night Jim, maybe it was the Bud It looks pretty straight from what I can see but I would definitely leave it in the jig for as long as you can, if you do your planking while it's in the jig you have a good chance of it ending up straight, but as John said, 2 planks per side and check the frame as you go along incase you have to pull anything off to re-straighten. Steve I did ALL the planking with the ship on my lap. As I added the planks, I eyed down the keel to make sure everything was in line before driving the nails home. It is way easier (in my opinion) doing the work on your lap then using the jig and you can easily re-position things and to keep the angles you're hammering at correct. BTW, nothing is better for making sure things are straight than sighting with your eye, nothing! All my masts are within 1/32" when I double checked using that method as well. I used a "nail nailer" to do the nailing the planks to the hull. It's one of those devices you load the nail in and push it. The nailer is how I did the entire hull.I just started the nails that way pushing them in (with the nailer)then tapped them with a tack hammer, then clipped them off and then drove them home. It's much faster and accurate doing it that way. It's easier to hammer against your leg than to try to nail against nothing. Besides, your leg won't hurt the ship. Now, I'm not discounting using the jig, It's just with my style personally that I find it to work as well or better than using a jig, but to each his own. I can't tell you how important those first 2 rows on each side are. If those are off whatsoever, you'll never get it straight. Keep reworking that as long as necessary until it's right. The ship comes with a couple of really long planks. Tack one of those into position on each side, tacking those into position to hold everything straight without using glue. Make sure the hull is straight and just as importantly make sure they are parallel to the deck. I used a set of calipers locked into place to do this. You have to get the planks at the correct height or ship just won't look right. Then while those planks are in place, start gluing the first 2 rows on each side butted up against them. Then you can pull those strips off.
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Rank: Beginner Level 3 Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/02/2012 Posts: 29 Points: 87 Location: Boston, lincolnshire
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Well it's been a few days since I've posted anything. I've not really managed to do a great deal to be honest, what with work etc. However I have glued all of the formers using a watered down PVA mix. I will be running some neat wood glue down the joints just as an extra measure. I am looking at adding some balsa infills to the bow to keep everything nice and strong. As I've mentioned before, I'm looking at replicating the deck effect that Magpie achieved in his build. I've never worked with wood stain before, but so far I have found staining the strips a little hit and miss. I've laid out a few strips on a spare former, I think I've been a little heavy handed with the stain so far, so further practise is required I think. One thing I have had difficulty with is cutting the strips consistently. I have a small metal mitre and a razor saw, but even with a new saw blade It seems to fray. So I've ordered a Chopper, kind of similar to the master cut. Hopefully that will help with accurate cuts. I still have plenty to learn, but so far I'm enjoying myself. jimmcoker attached the following image(s):
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Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/03/2014 Posts: 185 Points: 545 Location: Essex
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jimmcoker wrote:but so far I'm enjoying myself. Which, as far as I'm concerned, Jim, is the main thing!!! I DO like the look of your deck strips! Perhaps a tad too dark for our likings (I assume you referred to that before). But what length of strips are you using? I saw the download for issue three and they want it to be only 80? Oh, and yes, I am two weeks away from receiving my next bits but I will not nail the deck until I have the pin-pusher, which I should receive with the fourth delivery. I'll do some work in between with the deck strips (or at least I intend to) which will be a combination of work from a number of builders, but all I hope is that at the end I am still enjoying the build as much as you are.  So keep on enjoying yourself, Jim and be assured that all the good vibes will be sent your way!!! Adrie. 'Where to glue or where not to glue, that is the question'
Building: Hr. Ms. de Ruyter (card), Retourschip Batavia (Revell), HMS Surprise (De Agostini)
Built (and sunk): Too many to list
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Rank: Super-Elite Groups: Registered
Joined: 30/01/2013 Posts: 4,604 Points: 13,607 Location: Monmouthshire UK
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Hi Jim Glad to hear your enjoying your build, that's the main thing. Very wise also testing your stain first, you will soon find a colour you like. For cutting the deck planks the guillotine type cutter is what you need. Steve
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