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Michael Shumacher: F1 genius or cheat? Options
Tomick
#1 Posted : 26 August 2011 12:04:06

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SennaMentalMe
#2 Posted : 26 August 2011 13:22:16

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BigGrin Hi all,

I would say he was DEFINITELY a 'Genius' ........... when it comes to finding ways of 'Cheating' !!! LOL LOL


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#3 Posted : 26 August 2011 13:59:02

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Austin
#4 Posted : 26 August 2011 23:25:43

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I'm sorry to spoil the I hate Schumacher party, but if you can't except the fact that he's the best f1 driver ever then lok at the stats, 7 times world champion. Most poles, most fastest laps, the list goes on. Is it because he's german? Or is it because us Brits seem to put anybody down that does well? Not so long ago you were all slating lewis coz he was reckless & dangerous, but when he wins being reckless he's amazing. I don't get it. Micheal Schumacher is the greatest living f1 driver, he's earned that right coz he is. Am a true English man through and through but schumacher was the best. As for cheating well look at many of the other drivers past and present, it's called a passion to win not cheating.
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#5 Posted : 26 August 2011 23:47:21

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Quite right with what you say, but i seem to remember a certain race when schumacher's car broke and he 'Accidentally' swerved, taking out the only man capable of beating him for the championship.

If i remember right, it was the last race of the season, and he took out Damon Hill.
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SennaMentalMe
#6 Posted : 27 August 2011 16:47:21

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BigGrin Hi all,

Quote:
I'm sorry to spoil the I hate Schumacher party, but if you can't except the fact that he's the best f1 driver ever then lok at the stats, 7 times world champion. Most poles, most fastest laps, the list goes on. Is it because he's german? Or is it because us Brits seem to put anybody down that does well? Not so long ago you were all slating lewis coz he was reckless & dangerous, but when he wins being reckless he's amazing. I don't get it. Micheal Schumacher is the greatest living f1 driver, he's earned that right coz he is. Am a true English man through and through but schumacher was the best. As for cheating well look at many of the other drivers past and present, it's called a passion to win not cheating.


Hi, Austin.

With the politest respect, nobody has stated that this is an 'I hate Schumacher party' as you have so vehemently put it, there was just a question asked in the article entitled 'Michael Schumacher: F1 Genius or Cheat?, to which people have replied with their own views on said question. Nobody has used the word HATE .... except you?? Please don't get SO upset at what others, including myself have said about Michael, there is no need as they are just individual opinions, of which everybody is entitled to one in a democratic society, are they not?? You may well think he is the greatest, for whatever reason as you are perfectly entitled to do, others will not, again for whatever reason. To put down British people purely for having an opinion that appears different to yours is not acceptable and in my view you would be just as guilty of making derogatory comments which are NOT based on fact, as those that you feel are in the wrong by slating Michael purely because he may be German and NOT British, or, as you say, because he has done so well?? Have you considered that the reason he may have "done so well", is because he hasn't had any really worthwhile or truly talented opposition to stop him, other than maybe Hakkinen on the days when he bothered to turn up with his racing head on??

With regards to Michaels' "Greatness" - if it HAD to be assessed purely on what's in the 'Record Books' and 'Statistics', which are nothing more than lists anyway, it would be very hard to argue against him being the greatest driver and rightly so, I would back you up on that 100%. If, however, you were to look at and consider THE WAY in which he has achieved a significant proportion of those record numbers of wins, poles, etc., which as we are all aware has involved dodgy tactics on his part, dodgy orders from his teams and dodgy help from the FIA in their dodgy decision making, it has to be said that he would have a lot less in the way of great statistics than he is entitled to and therefore, NOT NECESSARILY the greatest - in my and many others opinion whether they are British or otherwise??

Neither does the fact that Michael is German have anything to do with it, in my opinion, as I actually have a lot of admiration for the German people, even if I am 100% British, born and bred and don't side at all with any of the 'What about the war?' rubbish. They are a very clever, educated and cultured race and deserve a lot of credit for the way that they are so well engineered and orderly in everything that they do - top drawer standards if you ask me and I wish that some British people would stop using the old England v Germany card at every opportunity and try to be more like the Germans in many, many ways. I know that will surely upset many Brits but it is just my opinion .... of which I am entitled!!

On the subject of slating Lewis Hamilton, again, everyone is entitled to an opinion about his antics behind the wheel, whether he goes on to win because of or in spite of it. Maybe he deserves slating, or maybe not?? This is not prejudice or 'Putting Down' anyone it is just a healthy and hopefully, adult debate, which is always good for the sport of motor racing or any other!! I, as you can guess am a long time Senna fan, but I can tell you that it didn't stop me slating him when even he, (as the greatest racing driver ever) used questionable tactics, if slating was clearly deserved??

.............................................................................................................

P.S. Michael Schumacher MAY be the greatest 'LIVING' racing driver, (debatable) .... in YOUR opinion, but he is NOT the greatest racing driver EVER TO HAVE LIVED. That accolade would surely have to go to Senna (had he been able to continue his career), or even Juan Manuel Fangio, or even Jim Clark?? .... But THAT is just MY opinion .... of which I am entitled !!! Mellow Cool

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Regards ... Kev. BigGrin
ianwood123
#7 Posted : 27 August 2011 20:05:20

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here here well said
SennaMentalMe
#8 Posted : 27 August 2011 20:13:49

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BigGrin Hi Ian,

Quote:
here here well said


Thankyou very much for your comment Ian, very much appreciated.

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Regards ... Kev BigGrin
willz
#9 Posted : 27 August 2011 21:03:09

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So the question is cheat or genius, well he was removed from all standings (as if he didn`t exist) in 1997 for deliberately ramming villeneuve, and as far as I am aware this is the only time a driver has received such punishment for cheating, so definitely a cheat then.
Ok genius, I personally don`t think that any driver is a genius, they are just talented, and with work honing there talent from childhood become extremely fast drivers, so therefor in my opinion he or any other f1 driver is not a genius.
So a simple answer to a simple question is CHEAT I wish all questions were this easy.

Willz
ianwood123
#10 Posted : 27 August 2011 21:59:14

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your welcome,and i think the cheating outways the undeniable skill
Austin
#11 Posted : 28 August 2011 00:38:13

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Like you said my opinion.
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#12 Posted : 28 August 2011 03:01:09

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Hi Kev,

You have said everything that I would agree with, well saidBigGrin Cool
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SennaMentalMe
#13 Posted : 28 August 2011 11:42:19

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BigGrin Hi all,

Quote:
Hi Kev,

You have said everything that I would agree with, well said


Thankyou for your comment MWG (is it Mike?), very much appreciated sir!BigGrin

Quote:
your welcome,and i think the cheating outways the undeniable skill


Ian, you're absolutely right. As I tried to explain in my previous and quite lengthy posting, Michael definitely has undeniable skill and talent, no-one can deny that if they are honest, which I am, but he has also had undeniable accusations (and evidence) of cheating laid at his feet on more than a few occasions, so quite right on both points, sir!BigGrin

Quote:
Like you said my opinion.


Austin,

Quite right sir, and as I have already acknowledged to you in my previous post, it is your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to it as everyone else is to theirs?? I have no desire to try and take that away!!

The point I was trying to get across to you (and I hope that I have), was that you had no right to come in all guns blazing as you did, bad mouthing the previous comments of others who don't share your views, whilst trying to convince them that your views are the only correct ones in this debate and if we don't agree then there must be something wrong with our nationality - totally unacceptable behaviour!! As I also suggested in my previous post, rather than 'blindly' assessing his 'greatness' on just one section of his career, i.e. his results as you seem to have done, maybe you should take all the other elements of his career into consideration, such as, the undeniable cheating and possibly a smidge of arrogance to boot, and then reassess whether in an honest and unbiased view, you can still see him as undeniably the greatest?? If you can, then that is how you must see it, and your opinion is still valid (to you), but for myself and a lot of others, greatness is NOT measured purely on results, but on many other things as well, both on and off the track.

As I've already said, I personally, totally respect Michael Schumacher for his skill as a driver even if I don't like his dodgy tactics and 'win at any cost' mentality, and I am convinced that he is genuinely a very nice person, but I and a lot of others certainly don't hate him, as you felt the need to put it!! Hate is a very strong and dangerous word to use if you don't know anything about the people that you are accusing of that emotion, do you not agree??

Can I just add here, that I really don't know why Michael feels the need for doing what he sometimes does as he is MORE than capable of achieving what he has done through his driving skills alone and he has only succeeded in persuading people to view him in a lesser light by his use of less than honest tactics in the past - isn't that a shame really??

Please, Austin, do not take any of my criticisms to heart, I just like a good debate and want you to see that an adult and sensibly worded debate is always going to be more enjoyable than one where someone starts chucking arrows at others for no good reason!! Lets just be friendly towards each other on here if we can?? BigGrin BigGrin

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P.S. On a lighter note: It would seem from yesterdays' Quali 1 that the wheels are now well and truly falling off his comeback methinks??

Regards ... Kev BigGrin

Austin
#14 Posted : 28 August 2011 17:20:36

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To be honest I think you took my comments a bit to seriously, after all that was just my view on the posted comment. Like you said we all are entitled to speak our minds. BigGrin
SennaMentalMe
#15 Posted : 28 August 2011 17:40:51

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BigGrin Hi Austin,

Quote:
To be honest I think you took my comments a bit to seriously, after all that was just my view on the posted comment. Like you said we all are entitled to speak our minds.


Maybe I did take them too seriously, maybe I didn't, it is up to you to decide that, I feel I didn't. As I have repeatedly said (and I don't want to keep saying the same thing over and over) your right to speak your mind or have your own opinion is not in dispute here it is in fact welcomed, as that is what constitutes a debate, is it not?

This is the last time I am going to say this and I hope that you understand what I am getting at here, but the point of my argument with your original comment is NOT what your opinion is, but the way you have put it across, or the words you have used to do that?

I hope, Austin, that we can leave this now and go forward from here and have sensible conversations in the future as I think there is a great bunch of guys on here, including yourself, we just need to be more careful in the way things are said. Is that OK?? BigGrin Cool Mellow

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Regards ... Kev.BigGrin
Austin
#16 Posted : 28 August 2011 17:59:23

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No probs kev.
SennaMentalMe
#17 Posted : 28 August 2011 18:44:13

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BigGrin Hi Austin

Quote:
No probs kev.


Thankyou, very much appreciated, sir!! BigGrin Cool

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Regards ... Kev BigGrin
willz
#18 Posted : 28 August 2011 20:40:20

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Why as everyone drifted away from the original question of cheat or genius, am I the only none politically minded person that can give a straight answer, (HE IS A CHEAT)
When interviewed by David Coulthard he was asked what was his most disappointing moment of his career, and he replied when he rammed villeneuve to try and win the 1997 world championship, now if Michael Schumacker wants to openly admit that he is a cheat then who am I to argue with the great man.
For some reason some people seem to be very confused about a very simple question, the question wasn`t how many times has he won the world championship, the question wasn`t how many poles he`s had, the question wasn`t how many times did his team mate have to move over (need a calculator for that one), the question was cheat or genius and I for one agree with Michael Schumacker in the fact that he is the biggest cheat ever in F1 but there again I've only been watching it for 50 years, and yes eveyone`s opinion is only valid to them, but can it really be only me that has the same opinion has Schumacker that he is a cheat.

Willz
Austin
#19 Posted : 28 August 2011 20:49:13

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[quote=willz]So the question is cheat or genius, well he was removed from all standings (as if he didn`t exist) in 1997 for deliberately ramming villeneuve, and as far as I am aware this is the only time a driver has received such punishment for cheating, so definitely a cheat then.
Ok genius, I personally don`t think that any driver is a genius, they are just talented, and with work honing there talent from childhood become extremely fast drivers, so therefor in my opinion he or any other f1 driver is not a genius.
So a simple answer to a simple question is CHEAT I wish all questions were this easy.

Willz[/quote


Just a couple of quotes from the dictionary
Genius,
Noun- unusual mental ability
Noun- a natural talent
Noun- exceptional creative ability
Noun- someone who is dazzlingly skilled in any field.
So your concept of the the word genius is slightly of key.
So maybe he was a cheating genius?
willz
#20 Posted : 28 August 2011 21:26:29

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Austin wrote:
I'm sorry to spoil the I hate Schumacher party, but if you can't except the fact that he's the best f1 driver ever then lok at the stats, 7 times world champion. Most poles, most fastest laps, the list goes on. Is it because he's german? Or is it because us Brits seem to put anybody down that does well? Not so long ago you were all slating lewis coz he was reckless & dangerous, but when he wins being reckless he's amazing. I don't get it. Micheal Schumacher is the greatest living f1 driver, he's earned that right coz he is. Am a true English man through and through but schumacher was the best. As for cheating well look at many of the other drivers past and present, it's called a passion to win not cheating.


a passion to win not cheating.
Apparently not as off key as yours on cheating
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