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 Rank: Pro   Groups: Registered
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Hi chaps. Building this aircraft gives us the opportunity to produce a fabulous looking aircraft that will, I am sure, attract lots of attention at shows and competitions, besides giving us lots of pleasure building it. I have contacted an spray can paint maker who does custom colours and passed on samples and paint reference material. They have produced an rattle spray can for aotake which as we all know is the primer/anti-corrosive paint used. THis morning I tried the smaple can they sent me and boy! It is good! However, the batteries in my camera proved to be as flat as ...... well you get the picture so to speak. I will post a picture when they have recharged!!!!!!!!!!!! From what I have seen with my own eyes, it is a match and needs no primer. Here are the details: Website http://www.cjaerosols.com/Here is what it says on the rattle spray tin: AOTAKE (Lechler 130) For those building this then I think that it is an absolute boon. It will save lots of time. I also sent them a list of the original and faded colours for the Zero that we are building along with FS matches. I have a PDF document available should you want it. I can't seem to post the table on here!!!
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Here is the promised photo 
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 Rank: Elite      Groups: registriert, Registered Joined: 20/03/2011 Posts: 2,356 Points: 7,122 Location: UK
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Good find and colour looks spot on 
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Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
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Here is a photo taken in natural sunlight. No colour correction and no filters. The Camera used is my Nikon D700 
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That looks brilliant Snap.... Completed: Earth, Moon, Sun Orbiter
Build a Model Solar System
Under Constuction: HMB Endeavour
HMS Victory
Mitsubishi Zero
Tiger Tank
D51
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,051 Points: -13,308
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Apologies, but I beg to differ on that one!? 
I don't know whether it is the natural daylight washing out the colour in your second photo and it seems to be the same with the artificial light in the first photo, but that seems too pale a blue too me and also too opaque? The original Aotake, according to my reference sources, is more of a deeper blue and was a kind of transparent wash not a solid colour??
Also, I think that the Aotake wouldn't have been used on every part of the airframe such as main ribs, as you have done, but was more selectively applied to areas of bare metal that were regularly exposed to the elements, such as wheel wells, folding wing tips and inside removable panels?? Not sure it was applied beneath wing skins and the like where the elements wouldn't have easy access to the bare metal!!
Sorry to pick fault, just making constructive criticism here and telling it the way I see it!!
Kev 
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Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
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No problem Kev. Everyone has their own opinions and I do respect them.
However you have to look at this from an operational point of view and not just a modellers view.
As we all know, there are very few survivors of this aircraft for us to examine. Lucky ones who live near a museum that has one on display could help the rest of us out temendously. There has been lots of books and research done on these aircraft, but without the real thing, or wreckage to examine we are stuck with what we can get our hands on. Everybodies opinion (and lets face it, we all have one) can and will differ.
We all know how corrosive to metal salt air and water is and I am sorry to bring this to everyones' attention - air is everywhere - even inside wings! The aotake was designed to prevent the corrosion and so, from this view it seems a reasonable assumption that the entire airframe and skin etc would have a coat or two of the Aotake before any other colour is applied.
In essence, the Aotake is the primer and anti-corrosion coating for naval aircraft.
As for the colours in the above photographs, I am sorry if they have not come out correctly on your monitor (every monitor has its own slightly different way of displaying colours.) but I can say that it is a 100% match to original chips (of which I have a set).
The only thing that I can say is why not get a tin from the company and try it yourself... It's only a tenner or so! Even if you don't like it then you havent waisted much and I think that inside one tin there is at least one models worth of paint!
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,051 Points: -13,308
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Thanks all the same Snapdragon, but I already have several pots of 'Lifecolor UA 136' which I think for modelling purposes (to my eye), is a very close match and doesn't cost ten pounds a pop?! Besides which a rattle can could never give as nice a finish as airbrushed paint and often looks too grainy in comparison, as can be seen in your photos, so I think I'll give that one a miss? Yes, I know I could decant the paint from the can into my airbrush, but why bother when the 'Lifecolor UA 136' is ready to go and is as near a match as you could wish, without counting rivets?
Also, whilst I'm sure that your paint chips are accurate to the full sized aircraft, you have to consider the question of 'Scale Colour' on a model in order to make it look right?? Same as something that is pure jet black in reality would need to be damped down to a very dark grey on a model to look right?? Pure black on a model just looks sooo wrong!!
Just the way I see things, but if you're happy then go for it, each to their own as they say?!
Kev
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Rank: Pro Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/11/2011 Posts: 200 Points: 506
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As I said, Kevin, Each to their own.
However, I must disagree with what people call "scale colour". This is a huge misnomer as IMHO there is no such thing. There has been many discussions, nay, arguments on many forums over this. It doesn't matter what scale you are building. you are replicating an item, such as we are so the original colours are just as good at full size as they are at 1/16 or 1/72. Why on earth would you want to change the orginial colours unless you are weathering and then you would use a lighter shade or smoke, dust, dirt effects.
"Scale Effect was, IMHO, phrased by a modeller who used the wrong colour but claimed it was "Correct to scale" to cover up the botched paint job.
Naaa! Won't "Wash" with me! Stick to the original colours!
By the way! the paint I had matched was from the lifecolour Aotake. It made sense to me to get a large rattle can made than spend lots on small paint pots for a large model. I am building two, and this can will do both of them and more!
Also, Later on this year Zoukei Mura will be releasing a 1/32 Raiden. This rattle can will also do for that as well. Just need to mask the parts that don't need Aotake on them thats all.
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,051 Points: -13,308
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Dear Snapdragon,
You are perfectly entitled to disagree with the 'Scale colour' theory, as is your prerogative, however it would seem that you know nothing about colour or colour theory!! I am a skilled artist as some on here are already aware and will testify and therefore, I fully understand colour, how it works and how it is perceived by the human eye? Should you paint, for instance, an engine cowling on a model aircraft that appears to be black in reality, WITH jet black paint as you are obviously want to do, it WILL inevitably be wrong because of the way that colour actually works!! Trust me when I tell you that pure black only exists in space outside of an atmosphere or in a vacuum. When viewed through Earths' atmosphere the true colour would not be pure black but a very, very dark grey as I stated earlier!! This is due to something called 'Aerial Perspective', which refers to the effect that water molecules within the atmosphere have in refracting light and thus the colour of whatever it is you are viewing, to a lesser or greater degree depending on the distance between yourself and the object being viewed?
The 'Scale Colour' theory IS correct in that if you were building say, a 1:48 aircraft - so NOT full size - with an apparently pure black cowling it would NOT actually be the same as looking at a full size cowling when viewed an inch from your eye, which would APPEAR to be pure black, as you would be so close to the full size thing!! But, ... as it is 1:48 scale, you would need to paint it with a dampened black which would be more akin to looking at the same apparently pure black cowling on a full size aircraft if it was 48 times further away!! Thus, in reality, you would be looking at it through a much greater volume of atmosphere and therefore the black would be dampened to the point where it looks like a very, very dark grey (almost black, but not quite), again as I stated earlier. This 'Aerial Perspective' can be seen for yourself anytime you like by going outside in daylight and looking at trees and hills in the far distance. Now you know as well as I, that trees and grass, for instance are usually green, but if you look at the same things in the distance - i.e. through an atmosphere - then they will appear to be more blue than green? This is because we have an atmosphere that is towards the blue end of the spectrum as is borne out by the fact that we have a blue sky? Ergo, the greater the distance to the object we are viewing, and therefore the more atmosphere we are looking through, then the bluer it will appear to the human eye. Every colour in the spectrum will appear blue if you take it far enough away from your eye!!
As long as we are on Earth, every colour that the human eye sees, without exception is subject to this effect simply because we the viewer, and the colours we are viewing, exist within the Earths' atmosphere!! This even refers to black and white, which incidentally aren't true colours, but are in fact tones and if even black can turn more blue the further away you take it from your eye, then from that, you must surely be able to deduce that black IS NOT BLACK even though you know that is what the true colour APPEARS to be, when viewed close up? Think about different scales such as 1:72, 1:48, 1:35 and so on? Whilst that means that they are respectively 72, 48 and 35 times smaller than the real thing it is also the same as looking at the real thing 72, 48 and 35 times further away than if you were standing right next to them and thus the colour will change with distance because of 'Aerial Perspective'??
IF you understood colour theory, which you obviously don't, you would also know that the ONLY colours that you cannot mix from others are Red, Yellow and Blue - the three Primary Colours. All the other colours in the spectrum are mixed from a combination of these three in varying quantities. The colour black (not a true colour) as viewed through the human eyeball, is in fact nothing more than the wavelengths of all colours being cancelled out against each other and thus appearing black - as it does in space where there is no atmosphere to refract humanly visible light (from Infra Red to Ultra Violet) into separate colours!! I and many other artists, who understand colour theory, would never buy a 'Lamp Black' or an 'Ivory Black' as it is an artificial black and looks unrealistic in a painting or indeed on a model!! It is possible, believe it or not, to make a much more natural looking black by mixing Red, Blue and Yellow in precise enough quantities that they cancel each other out and what you get is a very, very dark grey that looks like black against all other colours and is in fact emulating precisely what goes on when looking at black WITHIN our atmosphere.
THIS IS THE EFFECT THAT BRINGS ABOUT THE THEORY OF 'SCALE COLOUR'!!
I would say try it and see for yourself, but I doubt you will since you seem very subjective about the rights or wrongs of colour in modelling, so I'll leave it at that and let you make your own mistakes??
On the subject of your 'Aotake Blue' rattle can, you say that the paint company matched your rattle can colour to the Lifecolor UA 136, but earlier you said you had very accurate colour chips which you submitted to them. Which, by the way you worded it sounded like you had chips from the original full size paint? If it was just the Lifecolor UA 136 that they are matching then you have done nothing more than verify that I WAS CORRECT when I said earlier that the Lifecolor Aotake was a perfect match, or near as d*mn it, so why bother getting an aerosol made up in the first place if you already had the right paint, as to get a decent finish you would have to decant the rattle can and put it through an airbrush as I said earlier, which sounds like a lot of messing about to me?  
Unless of course you don't own an airbrush but then ALL good modellers invariably own an airbrush surely and they wouldn't use a rattle can unless there was no other way??
Sorry about the lecture on colour theory but you obviously don't understand it so I thought it best to enlighten you in the hope that you might get the point of 'Scale Colour' and understand why it is correct, when applying colour to a scale model and when looking for accuracy, which seems to be your goal with regards to your own modelling, or so it would appear?? To suggest that 'Scale Colour' is nothing more than a mistake by an incompetent modeller is nothing more than shallow and uneducated IMHO!!
Kev
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Rank: Elite Groups: registriert, Registered Joined: 20/03/2011 Posts: 2,356 Points: 7,122 Location: UK
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,051 Points: -13,308
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Red sounds neat Spencer ... but don't forget to use a 'Scale Colour' red if you want it to look right!!! 
Kev
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Rank: Elite Groups: registriert, Registered Joined: 20/03/2011 Posts: 2,356 Points: 7,122 Location: UK
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I think you both have your own views and at the end of the day kev/snapdragon it is each to their own... My Tamiya Zero Aotake is as close as I can get it due to me mixing it myself.. I use rattle cans and Airbrushes, paint brushes, the list goes on.. we also build models for fun and ourselves.. If we where doing commisions for others say collectors then I would imagine the colour has to be 99.9% accurate as that is what is expected from the collector... Snapdragon has found a good product IMO and one that will make a lot of builders of the Zero happy (and some purists not so) but please let's not let this thread get out of hand.. I respect both your views and Kev you do have a lot of knowledge (far more than me) with photography but lets agree to dissagree with this one guys Otherwise the Easter Bunny will not be bringing any eggs to the party Spence
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Rank: Pro Groups: Joined: 24/08/2009 Posts: 48,051 Points: -13,308
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I take your point Spencer and as you say we all have a right to our own opinion, no question!! I wasn't in any way trying to deny Snapdragon his opinion, merely trying to give him an insight into how colour works and how 'Scale Colour' does matter to some though not all, which I accept?? If he doesn't see that there is any basis to the reason for using scale colour then all I am saying is that if he investigated it further rather than suggesting that it was the result of a mistake by an incompetent modeller, then he would maybe come to understand that he is wrong to say that it doesn't matter since the facts will speak for themselves? If he doesn't wish to accept it then who am I to tell him that he should? As I say, I was merely trying to teach and give him an insight into how it all works, so that he might better understand it?
With regards to the rattle cans, my only real point was that it seemed a little pointless to have cans made up when he already has the Lifecolor UA 136 paint that he needs and probably an airbrush to put it through, so it seems a bit of a pointless exercise to me, that's all, since he would achieve a much better finish with an airbrush than he ever could with a rattle can, which I'm sure with your experience and knowledge, you would agree? But if that's what he prefers to do then again, who am I to try and deny him the right to do it that way?? Again, I was only trying to help with some advice?!
Not sure what you mean about me knowing more than you about photography though Spence - I know very little about photography - but I do know about colour, the theory behind it and how we see it.
Apologies Snapdragon if I have hijacked your thread - I will leave it alone now!!
Happy Easter everyone!! 
Kev
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Having read your fascinating dissertation on scale colour I do agree mostly with you. Like you I have had a rattle can made using the lifecolour Aotake. We both agree that the colour is the same as the original chip - or in my household as close as damnit is to swearing and that is so close then there is no disctinction. I do have an airbrush, compressor etc, but they are cheap ones and I get frustrated using the damn thing. For years I have used brushes and trying to make the switch and different techniques plus constant cleaning with all sorts of fluids, cleanters, waters etc between colours gets me frustrated. This, my Heart doctor says is not good for my survival ratio!!! For me, the rattle can I have had made is just right for this large scale model. It covers very well, doesn't need a primer (real time saver) and matches the chip. Each to their own really. It could also be cost effective as I reckon that there is more than enough paint in it to do a few aircraft. I would like to say that this thread is about colours and associated discussions for the zero. Kev, you're not hijacking the thread at all, mate. You're adding valuable science and information that helps us all. I have no problem with that at all. Everybody has their own thoughts, feelings, opinions etc on things and to both agree and disagree on things is perfectly natural. I would also like to point out that the human eye can only distinguish I think that it is about 65000 different colours, shades and hues (I think that I am about right in that. Someone will probably tell me better!!!!). A computer can do lots more than that!!!!!! Also the way we see colours differs from person to person due to the amount of rods and cones we have in our own eyes. We are all a litle different to each other. I would be interested to see what the scale effect colour would be for the Aotake. James (AKA Snapdragon the mad, Snapdragon the Grumpy and Uncle Snap to others!) 
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have today ordered three arosols from the paint guys to the cost of £35 plus a few pence. That's a tenner per can plus vat and because I ordered more than one I get free shipping. I have found out that they don't do FS colours but Pantone, BS, RAL etc they do. I therefore have spent quite a lot of time matching between systems. They have comparison charts etc. I have ordered another Aotake can (When ordering use the Pantone and put AOTAKE in the paint colour, also choose silk and acrylic options.) I have yet to veryfy the following colours that I have ordered, but they are suposed to match the equvalent FS number: RAL 5008 Grey Blue (cowling, Engine, undercart, Machine guns) this should look almost black but with a slight dark blue tint. Ordered in Acrylic with a silk sheen. http://www.leighspaintsonline.c...5008-grey-blue-917-p.aspRAL 7035 Light Grey (Overall, Pearl Harbour Zero, Fresh paint.) This colour matches the official Japanese paint chip N10 Ash Grey (dated September 1941). It also corobborates survivors accounts that Japanese fighter aircraft were a "Very pale, almost white colour with some having a greenish tinge" - they were flying that low! http://www.leighspaintsonline.c...035-light-grey-377-p.aspIt is therefore, IMHO that some Zero aircraft's paint jobs were oxidising due to the salt air, thus the greenish tinge While some were band new paint jobs. If anyone wants me to, I will try and match surviving oxidised paints. You may see slightly different shades from the links above depending on your monitor and graphics card settings. Please watch this space as I will try the paints when they come and report back to you all. Once again, thoughts and comments more than welcome. James
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